McCarthy admits he does not have backing of Cork hurlers

[theskull1]

As has been said before, I have very little visibility of the internal workings in Cork, apart from chatting to a few lads down there. What I would say, in a general point no matter what the county, is that these palyers put in savage efforts, and deserve the best preparation they can get. If they feel they cannot or are not being prepared well enough then they should retire. I abhor the notion of a 'strike' in the GAA, but I do support a players right to stop doing something he no longer enjoys.

Agree with that AZ. But the protanganists have unionised the panel and have attempted to use their collective might to subvert democracy. If they all walked away after truely making an indivdual decision then fair enough, but there are battles to be fought with that collective might. So I don't expect individuals to walk away quitely

[Croí na hÉireann]

Lads, I missed all the news this weekend as I was in London, so can somebody succinctly, and without bias on either side let me know what the Jaysus is going on down there.

I was told Donal Óg was in favour of McCarthy (see TBT's response to my ignorant first post), now it appears from Humphries article he wasn't. So 26 players don't want McCarthy, and 2 do. Is that it? But all the CB delegates do want McCarthy?

And the process that was agreed after the last strike was that the players would have 2 reps on the process to appoint a manager but they abstained? Or did they vote no?

And the unhappy players are retiring rather than striking, as per the agreement last year? At least that is a better approach in my view.

As has been said before, I have very little visibility of the internal workings in Cork, apart from chatting to a few lads down there. What I would say, in a general point no matter what the county, is that these palyers put in savage efforts, and deserve the best preparation they can get. If they feel they cannot or are not being prepared well enough then they should retire. I abhor the notion of a 'strike' in the GAA, but I do support a players right to stop doing something he no longer enjoys.

This is easily the best article written about this mess, should get u up to speed AZ...

http://www.tribune.ie/sport/article/2008/oct/26/wary-rebels-rise-up-again/

[The GAA]

AZ

Committee formed to recommend hurling manager for ratifiction by the clubs - make up of committee is 2 players reps and 5 county board members.
players are required to vote on their preference for McCarthy to continue or not in order to mandate ther reps how to vote on selection committee.
player reps vote no and 5 county board members vote yes to McCarthy
recommendation made to clubs and carried overwhelmingly.
makeup of players' vote (only 2 in favour of McCarthy continuing) are leaked to the press
McCarthy and senior players talk to press outlining their positions
McCarthy steadfast and determined to continue
Some senior players hinting that retirement will be their option.

did i miss anything? (facts only skull and OM)

[deiseach]

For what it's worth, I don't think the player are engaging in an attempt to protect their sponsorship deals or have a GPA-led junta installed in Cork. I think they want what is best for Cork hurling. The problem is that they have elevated the outcome of their win over the Board in 2002 to the status of a holy writ. Witness this in Kieran Shannon's piece

The veterans were certain they were doing the right thing. And this wasn't about their own future but the likes of Gardiner and his. Fergal Ryan never played for Cork again after that famous Imperial Hotel press conference, Mark Landers neither. This was about something bigger than all of them. So he signed it, just like everyone else. "Do I ever regret it?" Gardiner said last Thursday. "It was the best thing I ever did. I had the four best years of my career and my life."

To my mind, they are under the illusion that it was a diet of pasta and a few training ground routines that elevated them from being also-rans into the fine team that illuminated the game over that period. It's kinda sad to see them raging against the dying of the light by insisting that if only they went back to the way things were that everything would be fine. They want a different manager but are unwilling to offer alternatives, thus giving them another get-put-of-jail-free card when the next guy isn't up to scratch (they didn't win anything but hey, they're the team of 2003-6 so it can't be them doing it wrong, it must be him!) Let it go, lads. The longer ye stand together, the longer it will take to blood the next generation of Cork hurlers (see: the length of time it took Kerry to replace Mick O'Dwyer's golden generation).

[AZOffaly]

Thanks Croi and GAA.

I must say, in this case, I am not as clear in my opposition to the players after all. I've read Kieran Shannon's article, and while I'm normally loathe to just accept a journalists view, that particular article seems to be heavy on facts, as opposed to opinion. So, as I see it.

1) The players have been unsure, at best, about McCarthy's training methods and preparation techniques, and almost moved against him last year.
2) The process which was put in place last year does not give them nearly as much power as they might have thought (as I said last year if I could find the thread after the Holland affair)
3) The county board is cracking the whip (again) and the players are resisting (again).

All in all, I have to say that if the players don't have respect for the manager, if he's lost the dressing room so to speak, then his position in untenable. In this instance, it also appears as if the arrangement set up last year is as unsatisfactory as it appeared to me at the time it was set up.

As I've always said, I hate the thoughts of players 'striking', but I support any man who decides he can't dedicate himself to an amateur game for whatever reason, be that unhappiness with the setup, unhappiness with his role or unhappiness with the dedication needed.

As I said last year, and as I said in my first post. These regular battles between the county board and the players are symptomatic of a relationship that is just gone beyond the pale. The GAA in the county, at club level, needs to decide do they want strong administrators who seem to yearn for huge power, or people at county board level who will do whatever they can to keep the players happy, within reason.

If they do decide they want to keep the Frank Murphys of this world in situ, they can either resign themselves to spats like this every year, or else resign themselves to losing a lot of players and starting again with lads who feel they can play in such an environment.

Either way, these papering over the cracks jobs are pointless, and it has to come to a head.

I can't help feel, though, that the players are longing for a return to the Donal O'Grady days, but time doesn't stand still. Kilkenny have moved on, and Cork have moved back. Perhaps the players are just blaming managers for the frustration in not being top dogs any more. Whatever is going on, as a GAA man, first and foremost, it is a sad state of affairs down there and it is a pity.

[AZOffaly]

Deiseach, I agree with you, but again I think there are two issues here.

First of all, the players unhappy at a manager being foisted on them that they feel is not up to the job.

Secondly, the players thinking they are actually better than they are. That's what I was getting at in my last sentence.

The players may be wrong in their reasoning, but it does seem as if they were given fairly short shrift in the new 'process', which I always suspected they would be.

[The GAA]

Deiseach, i'd say you are being a bit unfair on the motives of the players here. the message seems to be that the want to win all irelands and kilkenny's dominance is hurting them. to me, they are fighting for the best possible conditions to challenge kilkenny - training, preparation, systems of play, etc. and if all of that is in place and they still fall short then at least they will have given it everything. very often,giving everything to win is not nice business

[deiseach]

Deiseach, i'd say you are being a bit unfair on the motives of the players here. the message seems to be that the want to win all irelands and kilkenny's dominance is hurting them. to me, they are fighting for the best possible conditions to challenge kilkenny - training, preparation, systems of play, etc. and if all of that is in place and they still fall short then at least they will have given it everything. very often,giving everything to win is not nice business

That assumes that the players blueprint for success is inherently the best one. What are these spectacular training ground routines that the Cork players believe / know are best? If they're so brilliant surely everyone is doing them, in which case we can dispense with coaches altogether because the best system is out there and to deviate from that system is inherently going to reduce your chances of success. I certainly wasn't impugning the motivation of the players. I said that they want what is best for Cork hurling. But just because they believe that what they want is best doesn't mean this is the case. Note that this is equally true of Frank Murphy and his cronies, but ultimately the decision lies with them. And that is the way it should be.

[The GAA]

Obviously i don't know what the best blueprint for success is for cork hurling, nor do i know the specifics of how they feel the intensity and direction of their training can be improved. I assume you are being sarcastic with the dispensing with coaches remark as its obvious that what will work for cork will be diffenent from what works for every other county. the job of a coach i to find the right systems / training / style for his players and maximise it. obviously the cork players feel that after two years gerald isn't equipped to do that.

certainly, there is a chance that the cork players don't know the best way to maximise their capabilities. maybe there is someone who knows better?
taking all that into account, if i were a cork man i'd go with the players' opinion on the best way forward on the field over the county boards'.

[deiseach]

certainly, there is a chance that the cork players don't know the best way to maximise their capabilities. maybe there is someone who knows better?
taking all that into account, if i were a cork man i'd go with the players' opinion on the best way forward on the field over the county boards'.

And that is the crux of the matter. Who should decide who the next manager is, the players or the County Board? As things stand, the responsibility lies with the County Board. I doubt there is a capacity in the GAA's rulebook for that power to be handed over to the players - who would decide who 'the players' are? - but if there is then it is up to the players to lobby their clubs for that change to be implemented. To suggest any other course of action is to advocate the players being given power without responsibility.

[cornafean]

I have absolutely no time whatsoever for the Provisional GPA types who dominate the Cork hurling squad, but one fact stands out: Gerard McCarthy's position is untenable, as untenable as that of Teddy Holland last winter. McCarthy made the fatal mistake of backing the hurlers last winter. He should have realised at the time that his turn would come.

[AZOffaly]

But deiseach, in this instance were the players actually advocating anybody else, or were they simply stating that they feel Gerard McCarthy's time is over? I would prefer that approach to the one the Waterford lads went through with Justin this year. If they have opinions about a manager, then raising them in October is better than in May.

Unless they are dictating who the next manager should be, I think they are within their rights to raise concerns about the incumbent when he's up for reappointment. And it seems they did it to his face as well, which is also the right way to do it.

Again though, it just seems to be symptomatic of the bad relationship between the Co. Board and the players. With last year in mind, to borrow a phrase 'Did they really believe that this war would end wars?'

[The GAA]

Their gripe seems to seems to be about the process az. they were advocating gathering opinions, shortlisting, interviewing, etc.
obviously the process that has arrived at McCarthy without and consultation and againt the wishes of the players has to be flawed even to the most biased eye?

there are rumours that the players' have a preferred choice but haven't a clue

[AZOffaly]

Their gripe seems to seems to be about the process az. they were advocating gathering opinions, shortlisting, interviewing, etc.
obviously the process that has arrived at McCarthy without and consultation and againt the wishes of the players has to be flawed even to the most biased eye?

there are rumours that the players' have a preferred choice but haven't a clue

They seem to have an issue with McCarthy, number 1.

They also seem to have a valid reason for railing against the process, which seems to have been

'Howye lads, we're appointing Gerald again, ok?'
'Actually, no, the players feel that...'
'Right vote. 5-2. I'll ring Gerald.'
ring ring.
'He's taking it. Shag off. Democracy is great'.

[theskull1]

Boys, if everybody could ask themselves what the GAA landscape would look like if every senior panel took the same right wing attitude that these boys have taken. Could you now tell me who in the world would want to "mentor" a nation full of know it all players who will turn on them once they don't get the results "they" expect? The game would crumble becuase you would never get the individulas prepared to hold themselves up to such public scrutiny and humilation from the people they have at the outset tried to "mentor".