what would you do?

[Lar Naparka]

lar na parka,
i have faith in your view. The question is this, on seeing a man abusing a small child what do you do?
Hitting the father is hardly the answer but its an option if he hits the child after you give him a verbal warning.  I am not aggressive by nature but hate to see any sort of abuse to an innocent victim.
The question still stands very tall,
Would you say or do something or is it best not to get involved?
For the record, police were not an option for me,no mobile phone.

No problem, mannix, I was not directly replying to your original question earlier.
I couldn't resist replying to ros when he seemed to imply that any sort of complaint to the authorities would lead to the child being taken into custody and reared in a foster home.
Maybe I am taking things up wrong here but I don't think so.
What I'd do in your situation would depend very much on the circumstances; there's no point in saying I'd lay into the guy or that I'd turn away and pretend that I saw nothing either.
I think I'd let the man know I witnessed the incident and wasn't impressed by what I saw. How I'd do that depends on the circumstances. I would also take a quick summing up here; did anyone else witness the incident and what would be the probable reaction of the father?
A few years ago I would have told him directly but right now I can't afford to get involved in a row if I can help it. I need a walking stick to get around.
I think I'm big enough and strong enough to discourage most from trying to directly attack me but I can do without undue stress of any sort.
As well as that, would directly confronting the man help the child in any way?
I feel I would ask him what the problem was and judging from his reaction, I would decide what to do next.
Another thing to keep in mind is that any intervention might cause the father to lose his rag even more and to take his anger out on the child, as if he was the cause of my interference. I know damn well that he mightn't strike the kid again in my presence but there is a very real chance he would do it later on.
Unless I felt there was a very immediate and serious danger that the child would be further assaulted, I would wait until I cooled down somewhat and then ring the gardai.
I'd try and be as factual as possible and give my contact details to whoever was on the other end of the phone line. I would be prepared to let the law take its course and I'd be prepared to stand over what I reported and take my chances after that.
I have a niece who is a clinical psychologist and works part of the time in Mayo. She also runs a clinic in Manchester. She reckons the incidence of domestic mental and physical abuse is far higher in rural Ireland than it is in urban areas. [She has handled cases referred to her in Dublin also from time to time.]
According to her, the big reason for this is the reluctance of the public to intervene in any way in the domestic problems of anyone else. We are not talking about nosy neighbours or anything like that but of the unwillingness of a community to pretend not to see something of this nature going on in their midst. Often, the parents need more urgent help than any kids that may be involved!

[Handy]

It is great that most here are condemning what is child abuse; it's just a bit strange that a few months back some of the posters here were advocating slapping a child, it's easy I suspect when slapping is the norm to have the slaps get harder as the kid gets older or the patience wears thinner!!! No child/toddler should be slapped it is wrong for an adult to physically impose himself/herself on a defenceless child.

[Puckoon]

It is great that most here are condemning what is child abuse; it's just a bit strange that a few months back some of the posters here were advocating slapping a child, it's easy I suspect when slapping is the norm to have the slaps get harder as the kid gets older or the patience wears thinner!!! No child/toddler should be slapped it is wrong for an adult to physically impose himself/herself on a defenceless child.

Disagree - there is a big huge line in the sand that most right minded people have no problems about not crossing. Physical discipline is in decline at the same time that kids are running riot.

[Handy]

So how hard do you slap them to bring the message home - do you not think that being a family from the outset, being interested in your children as they grow, being part of their life - leading by example as to what is right and wrong would be more productive?  Anyone can hit a child, it's an awful lot harder to give up some of your interests etc when a child comes along and get involved, society just is too busy now and don't want to get involved!

[Puckoon]

So how hard do you slap them to bring the message home - do you not think that being a family from the outset, being interested in your children as they grow, being part of their life - leading by example as to what is right and wrong would be more productive?  Anyone can hit a child, it's an awful lot harder to give up some of your interests etc when a child comes alone and get involved, society just is too busy now and don't want to get involved!

Were you ever (for want of a better word) spanked? Just spanked. Not whacked, beaten, whalloped.

I was, and it worked.

Most examples I have seen of kids who werent are resulting in serious lack of discipline and respect. All avenues of discipline should be implied - but I will not shy away from having to use the spanking if I deem it necessary.

[Handy]

I'd love to know your definition of spanked?  Would spanking a 5 year old work, or an 8 year old, doubt it think you'd have to hit, slap or whack to bring your message home in the physical bullying stakes, it's all a slippery slop - and yes I was hit, and hit hard probably didn't do me any harm in the wider sense of the world but didn't make me what I am either, it's just an excuse for bullies to impose themselves on children.

[Puckoon]

I'd love to know your definition of spanked?  Would spanking a 5 year old work, or an 8 year old, doubt it think you'd have to hit, slap or whack to bring your message home in the physical bullying stakes, it's all a slippery slop - and yes I was hit, and hit hard probably didn't do me any harm in the wider sense of the world but didn't make me what I am either, it's just an excuse for bullies to impose themselves on children.

Thats a very literal view, which is wrong in my opinion. Your parents were bullies? Mine werent.

Dont get me wrong - Im not going gung ho for slapping a child, but I really have no time for this zero tolerance of parents who discipline their child with spanking/slapping. Where has it come from that slapping a child as a parent trying their best is the precursor for child abuse?

Surely people predisposed to beating up their kids are going to do it - no matter what the laws on spanking a child are.

Go after them (not you in particular) and let the rest of the world bring up their kids to the best of their ability.

[pintsofguinness]

I'd love to know your definition of spanked?  Would spanking a 5 year old work, or an 8 year old, doubt it think you'd have to hit, slap or whack to bring your message home in the physical bullying stakes, it's all a slippery slop - and yes I was hit, and hit hard probably didn't do me any harm in the wider sense of the world but didn't make me what I am either, it's just an excuse for bullies to impose themselves on children.

You think your parent's were bullies?

I think you know the difference between physical discipline and child abuse.

[mannix]

I used to get battered by my father for sweet f all,it destroyed a lot of my childhood but I have moved on, i always go for a pint with him these days when I am home but will never really forgive him.

[Yes I Would]

Id swear me and the brothers still have the odd mark from the mothers wooden spoon, but she was bloody right.
We must have been hard work, and it done us all no harm in the scheme of things.  All very close and it was just the done thing for discipline.
Most of the time it got the message across and was deserved!!

[The Iceman]

I got a good few beatings in my time - up until I was 17 actually - not malicious or abusive but well deserved smacks and the odd good kick up the ass

[Lar Naparka]

I always knew where the line was drawn and was generally too fond of myself to go too far across it. What I found much harder to bear was sarcasm and I got plenty of that from the s.o.b who was my teacher for far too long. IMO, one day would have been too long as far as that twit was concerned.
Whatever was missing from his childhood, he sure bore a grudge against children, unless their parents or some other adult was within earshot. I certainly felt an odd clatter on the lug at home did me far less emotional damage than this creature's deliberate taunting and sneering.  I have yet to meet any other past pupil of his who didn't wish to have him anchored to the grate of hell's fire or something similar.
The fool who coined the phrase, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never harm me," never attended the same f**king national school that I went to.

[Main Street]

This is a test to see if you are a man or not.

How many still hold open a door for a woman?

I did it today for a woman and received a nice smiling thank you.
I thought of going back to the door, hang around and wait for a better proposition.

How many would give their seat up on a bus or train for a woman of any age or a pensioner?

at least Lynchboy and Tony

How many would speak up when a child gets beaten or a woman?

I intervened late one Sat night when I saw a man giving a woman some slaps in the distance. It looked worse that it actually was because they were arguing. He stopped the slapping or attempts at, when I approached. I stayed off a few paces and just asked him in a normal tone to stop slapping her. He stopped it and she stumbled away. Then he was about to tell me some of the stuff she was supposed to have done. I just said I understand that, but slapping her around isn´t the way,  let it wait until morning -  (the confrontation not the slapping).

Another time I saw a woman at the medical card office give a full on fierce enough slap to a 7 year old girls face, for just being a little girl afaics. But I also saw that the mother was at the emotional extreme end of her wits. I just felt sad for them both but more so for the young girl whose innocence was in the process of being battered.
   
My mother began to bring me to Church when I was 3 or 4, I use to want to look all round and talk, stand up on the seat etc. Then at home I would get caned for that. I didn't know why, I hadn't a clue about right or wrong, just felt the intense injustice. Later years I would get caned regularily for real mischief, sore enough, but once the pain goes then I was alright, ready to hit the streets. But then my mother wouldn't talk to me for a week.  That was the violence, the worst kind - the silence, it just fecks around with a young kids head, there is no way a kid can process that in anything but a destructive way.

It took a long time for me to appreciate her life, through her eyes, growing up and what brought her to that state of mind then I could understand that she did her best.



How many would intervene when they seen another man getting beaten up by two?

Approach that one carefully.

[Over the Bar]

Disagree - there is a big huge line in the sand that most right minded people have no problems about not crossing. Physical discipline is in decline at the same time that kids are running riot.

You are right in that kids are running riot due to lack of discipline, but unfortunatley many parents equate discipline to slapping / smacking.  Smacking is the easiest short, sharp, shock method, however alternative discipine such as verbal discipline, removal of privileges, teaching right from wrong, etc  requires patience, thought and perseverence  on the part of the parents many of whom this is beyond.

[rosnarun]

I'd love to know your definition of spanked?

its very simple if the intention is to improve the child it's a spanking anything else is abuse .
When should it stop
when the child is old enough to make a fight of it. you are getting into a whole other realm when that starts to happen