Irish mercenaries, unionist coat trailers and the Bard of Dunclug

[Donagh]

I thought we'd had an end to this nonsense when Sammy left. Let's get something clear, there are not nor have there ever been a million unionists in the six counties.

2005 election
Combined unionist (DUP, UUP, Alliance, Conservatives) vote: 400,179

Currently between 8%-12% of these unionists would need to change their voting preference now to trigger an UI or if we leave it a few years about 5%. Not an unrealistic target and the reason why unionist political parties will do their damnedest to stoke the tribal/sectarian fires for as long as possible.

[Evil Genius]

As for EG going on about republicans having to convince 1 million unionists on the benefits of a United Ireland. Again, that is wrong. Republicans only need to convince 50.1% of the whole of the 6 counties. That could means as little as 5% of unionists would have to vote for a united Ireland (if all catholics voted for). Now, if that happened what would the unionist attitude to democracy be I wonder?? Why, I'm sure there would be parades everywhere celebrating a truly historical democratic decision. What would you do EG?

Fair enough, I'll accept your point about it only taking 50% +1, thereby only requiring maybe 5% of Unionists to switch. But I would add two further points of my own.

First, do you think the tactics of those who advocate a United Ireland, such as we saw yesterday, are actually achieving anything in terms of persuading the necessary 5%? Clearly the only answer must be "no". In fact, such activities only strengthen the resolve of Unionists. Which actually exposes the inherent contradiction in Irish Republicanism, namely, that the more they try to inveigle Unionists into a UI, whether by force or otherwise, the more they resist.

Second, even if you manage to persuade your 5% of Unionists, how much can you take for granted the "catholics" [sic] of NI to continue to vote pretty much unanimously for a United Ireland? These things can flow both ways. In fact, when you consider the increasing apathy of the people South of the border towards all things NI, plus the difficult economic times ahead of us, whereby GB is likely to prove a more secure haven for a beleagured NI than the Republic, I wouldn't be surprised if the tide were now flowing in our direction.

After all, if large numbers of Nationalists were not prepared to get out of bed on Sunday morning in order to be "offended", who's to say they'll all stride out on some future Thursday to a Polling Station, so as to be "liberated" via the stroke of a pencil?

[ziggysego]

No-one, but the mindless few EG, want to drive the million or so Unionists off the island. They'd hope to show that a United Ireland is beneficial to the Unionist community, as well as the Nationalist / Republican community.

[Evil Genius]

Lots of pictures of the loyalist rent-a-mobs in today's Irish News.  Evil Genius's smugness seems misplaced to me.

I've no doubt that the presence of SF and eirige etc persuaded their "Loyalist" counterparts to see their first Sunday morning in years, and join the crowds on the streets of Belfast. And I'm hardly surprised that when choosing which photos to use in this morning's paper, the Editor of the IN focused on the most "dramatic" of those - i.e. those lowlife which you correctly characterise as "loyalist rent-a-mobs".

But I am a long way from being "smug" about this. I daresay I find these scumbags just as objectionable as you do and deplore their presence yesterday equally forceably.

But their presence as a clearly small minority on the streets does not detract from the overwhelming message of the day, any more than the presence of an equally small number of SF/eirige protestors: Namely, that the RIR is perfectly entitled to parade through the streets of their home city, to a rousing welcome from their friends, families and loved ones, and there's not a damned thing you, Loyalist hoods, SF protestors or anyone else can do to stop them.

And if that last sentence is, indeed, "smug", then I make no apology for it, since I and many others have waited a long time for this moment.

Faugh a Ballagh!   

[Donagh]

First, do you think the tactics of those who advocate a United Ireland, such as we saw yesterday, are actually achieving anything in terms of persuading the necessary 5%? Clearly the only answer must be "no". In fact, such activities only strengthen the resolve of Unionists. Which actually exposes the inherent contradiction in Irish Republicanism, namely, that the more they try to inveigle Unionists into a UI, whether by force or otherwise, the more they resist.

Second, even if you manage to persuade your 5% of Unionists, how much can you take for granted the "catholics" [sic] of NI to continue to vote pretty much unanimously for a United Ireland? These things can flow both ways. In fact, when you consider the increasing apathy of the people South of the border towards all things NI, plus the difficult economic times ahead of us, whereby GB is likely to prove a more secure haven for a beleagured NI than the Republic, I wouldn't be surprised if the tide were now flowing in our direction.

After all, if large numbers of Nationalists were not prepared to get out of bed on Sunday morning in order to be "offended", who's to say they'll all stride out on some future Thursday to a Polling Station, so as to be "liberated" via the stroke of a pencil?

EG, you obviously weren't there yesterday so let me just point something out as you seem to be harbouring some sort of notion that yesterday was a victory of sorts for unionism. Living abroad you've probably missed it, but the overwhelming impression of yesterday was that the worst of the loyalist underclass were again on display and managed to disgrace the whole unionist community with their vile behaviour. That no unionist leaders have come out and condemned this despite the fact it's been over all of the papers and tv reports will ensure the long term drift from unionism will continue as it has for the last 20 years. With populations trend continuing 5% of unionism might not even be needed as no self respecting person would want to be anywhere near this type of gutter snipe nileist unionism that offers nothing to society.

[Donagh]

After all, if large numbers of Nationalists were not prepared to get out of bed on Sunday morning in order to be "offended", who's to say they'll all stride out on some future Thursday to a Polling Station, so as to be "liberated" via the stroke of a pencil?

I think the rest of us would see that as a sign of community confidence rather than what happened in the unionist community who had to rely on the mobilsation of the worst of the loyalist gangsters, lumpenproletariat and armed paramilitaries in order to secure a march for a few dozen wee lads in funny suits.

[Zapatista]

After all, if large numbers of Nationalists were not prepared to get out of bed on Sunday morning in order to be "offended", who's to say they'll all stride out on some future Thursday to a Polling Station, so as to be "liberated" via the stroke of a pencil?

It was pointed out to you earlier in the thread that not all things done in the north are tribal. You accepted this. You then revert back to continue to use tribalism to justify your weak arguments.

Your misuse of quotes above is condescending and insulting.

You seem to accept that things have changed but are continually adamant that things will not change. I don't understand how someone can think in this way. I can understand why someone claims they think in this way.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

[But that does not detract from my main point, which is that when protestors demand an end to the presence of "British troops in Ireland", they are not just talking about squaddies from some anonymous English town, sent to Belfast to crack a few Paddy skulls, before flying into Baghdad to rough up the ragheads etc, thence to Kabul to take a shot at the Taliban etc.

Okay but........watching the news reports I didn't see a protest about "British troops in Ireland" but a protest about "actions of British troops in Ireland".  Hence the names of victims on placards, the releasing of balloons.  I thought that Sinn Féin played it clever in that regard.  Is there a chance that some people just presumed what the protest was about?.

Looking at the media reports the only ones portrayed as playing the tribal card were the loyalist crew and their chanting.  Of course all and sundry are playing propaganda games here but from the outside looking in that's how it seemed.

/Jim.

[Donagh]

I don't understand how someone can think in this way.

Happens to most exiles, who when they begin to lose touch, retreat back to into what they know best, despite the rest of the world moving on. 

[mylestheslasher]

As for EG going on about republicans having to convince 1 million unionists on the benefits of a United Ireland. Again, that is wrong. Republicans only need to convince 50.1% of the whole of the 6 counties. That could means as little as 5% of unionists would have to vote for a united Ireland (if all catholics voted for). Now, if that happened what would the unionist attitude to democracy be I wonder?? Why, I'm sure there would be parades everywhere celebrating a truly historical democratic decision. What would you do EG?

Fair enough, I'll accept your point about it only taking 50% +1, thereby only requiring maybe 5% of Unionists to switch. But I would add two further points of my own.

First, do you think the tactics of those who advocate a United Ireland, such as we saw yesterday, are actually achieving anything in terms of persuading the necessary 5%? Clearly the only answer must be "no". In fact, such activities only strengthen the resolve of Unionists. Which actually exposes the inherent contradiction in Irish Republicanism, namely, that the more they try to inveigle Unionists into a UI, whether by force or otherwise, the more they resist.
Second, even if you manage to persuade your 5% of Unionists, how much can you take for granted the "catholics" [sic] of NI to continue to vote pretty much unanimously for a United Ireland? These things can flow both ways. In fact, when you consider the increasing apathy of the people South of the border towards all things NI, plus the difficult economic times ahead of us, whereby GB is likely to prove a more secure haven for a beleagured NI than the Republic, I wouldn't be surprised if the tide were now flowing in our direction.

After all, if large numbers of Nationalists were not prepared to get out of bed on Sunday morning in order to be "offended", who's to say they'll all stride out on some future Thursday to a Polling Station, so as to be "liberated" via the stroke of a pencil?

I don't buy this either. If you consider that the majorty of people in the UK and the USA are against the current war in Iraq then I don't believe that this protest could have a negative effect on 95% of unionists. Surely, within Unionism, there is a large amount of people who are against the war in Iraq.

[lynchbhoy]

I've no doubt that the presence of SF and eirige etc persuaded their "Loyalist" counterparts to see their first Sunday morning in years, and join the crowds on the streets of Belfast. And I'm hardly surprised that when choosing which photos to use in this morning's paper, the Editor of the IN focused on the most "dramatic" of those - i.e. those lowlife which you correctly characterise as "loyalist rent-a-mobs".

oh for fux sake
this guy gets better...
more loyalist violence apologisim 

where does he stop ...
I suppose the next one will be that 'cromwell was just a tourist that was misunderstood and attacked' ....

[ziggysego]

I wonder if it had of been Republicans firing missiles in at the Loyalists, would there been a bigger uproar about it on the news, the papers and the politicians.

[lynchbhoy]

I wonder if it had of been Republicans firing missiles in at the Loyalists, would there been a bigger uproar about it on the news, the papers and the politicians.

I think you know the answer to that one !

I reckon those 'text yer answer a , b or c ' tele quizes are harder to answer that than one !

[ziggysego]

I wonder if it had of been Republicans firing missiles in at the Loyalists, would there been a bigger uproar about it on the news, the papers and the politicians.

I think you know the answer to that one !

I reckon those 'text yer answer a , b or c ' tele quizes are harder to answer that than one !

We could run a telephone scam lynch and make a fortune. I believe Gs Man made a fortune off us at the beginning of the year. Niece my arse!

[lynchbhoy]

I wonder if it had of been Republicans firing missiles in at the Loyalists, would there been a bigger uproar about it on the news, the papers and the politicians.

I think you know the answer to that one !

I reckon those 'text yer answer a , b or c ' tele quizes are harder to answer that than one !

We could run a telephone scam lynch and make a fortune. I believe Gs Man made a fortune off us at the beginning of the year. Niece my arse!

...how about an 'orangeathon'


maybe get the bard of dunclug to come out of his hiding place and give us his szichoprenia impressions
and witty 'camp fire' tales of 'infiltrating the fenian enemy' (by looking at GAA websites)
and some of the hilarious banter he's reknown for !