Georgia/Russia

[Yes I Would]

This has the US's dirty paws all over it in my opinion. Read somewhere 1,000 Us marines were at a Georgian base a month ago learning them combat skills.

Georgia would not have run the risk off bringing Russia into conflict without Bush's backing.

[J70]

You think the Americans advised him that the Russians would just take it on the chin and let it go, despite the massive buildup of their forces along the border? Putin was really only reluctantly provoked into coming to the aid of beleaguered refugees?

Assuming its true, what does the presence of US marines really mean? It couldn't just be that the US is helping an ally who is augmenting their own forces in Afghanistan I suppose.

It is interesting that the leaders of the baltic states, Poland and the Ukraine have all sided with the Georgians in this. Is that more US manipulation? Can these countries really not think for themselves and decide to ally themselves to the US and NATO to protect themselves?

[Yes I Would]

It shows to me that this Georgian outfit and the US are bedfellows, and that either this pro Western Georgian leader has assumed that Bush will back him up militairily if needed in the outbreak of conflict, or the US have instigated the whole affair knowing that Putin would flex his muscles and get invloved, discrediting Russia, and taking a bit of heat of Bush and the continuing disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[J70]

It shows to me that this Georgian outfit and the US are bedfellows, and that either this pro Western Georgian leader has assumed that Bush will back him up militairily if needed in the outbreak of conflict, or the US have instigated the whole affair knowing that Putin would flex his muscles and get invloved, discrediting Russia, and taking a bit of heat of Bush and the continuing disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Georgian president wanted and were counting on US backup. As to who instigated the thing, from what I've read so far, it appears to have been well planned, manipulated and played by Putin, who plainly doesn't give a flying f**k what the rest of the world thinks.

[gerry]

this new reporter had a lucky escape when a bullet graised her arm when reporting live on tv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShPxp-oJqX8&feature=related

[scud]

American advisers where in a month before giving war games training to the Georgians, is this supposed to be a coincidence?  Either they messed up and didn't realise that the Russians would kick the Georgians ass, (after the Georgians had murdered several thousand of the south ossetia citizens, leaving the Russians little choice but to protect the citizens of south ossetia) or they thought the Russians would start a civil war with the Georgians giving them the moral high ground and a free rein to attack Iran because ultimately that is what they are looking an excuse to do.  Far too many trillion dollars of oil going out of Iran to Russia and China and the americans want a piece.  If there is trouble in the world anywhere and oil in the vicinity the American administration will be lurking in the background.

Do you really believe Russia has some sort of humanitarian interest in Georgia? Just has America had a 'humanitarian' interest in Iraq/Afganistan/Ethiopia??

Also, the claims of atrocities from both sides are as yet unproven

[Mentalman]

Saw that plank Bush on earlier. He really hasnt a f**king clue where Georgia is, never minds whats going on.

My God, have they not enough f**king strife in the world without going and starting another feckin conflict. Really should have feck all to do with them

So this is all America's fault?

Despite the Georgian president's pleas, the US has done  sweet FA so far to support him except call for a ceasefire and fly in two planes full of aid. There are lots of people in the states calling for a much, much tougher response from the Bush administration, basically saying that Putin has called his bluff.

American advisers where in a month before giving war games training to the Georgians, is this supposed to be a coincidence?  Either they messed up and didn't realise that the Russians would kick the Georgians ass, (after the Georgians had murdered several thousand of the south ossetia citizens, leaving the Russians little choice but to protect the citizens of south ossetia) or they thought the Russians would start a civil war with the Georgians giving them the moral high ground and a free rein to attack Iran because ultimately that is what they are looking an excuse to do.  Far too many trillion dollars of oil going out of Iran to Russia and China and the americans want a piece.  If there is trouble in the world anywhere and oil in the vicinity the American administration will be lurking in the background.

Before I say anything, I'd just like to say my opinion on Russia & Georgia is a curse on both their houses in this situation.

But the dust is now settling. There is no evidence of genocide or war attrocities by Georgia in South Ossetia during their advance at the start of the week - either independent or from Russian sources. Georgia has been making increasingly nationalist growls over the past months. Perhaps the presence of American marines was the catalyst for Russia to draw Georgia's sting, and put a bit of smacht on them. It seems an increaseingly cocky Georgia were provoced/drawn into making the initial move by South Ossetian/Russian forces, and once they crossed out of their territory the Russians were waiting with their preplanned build up - et voila!

There are no white knights in this situation - South Ossetia is merely a pawn in a greater game.

This area has historically been pulled between the major powers, the only differnce is the players have changed - the UK has been substituted by the USA - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game

[J70]

Saw that plank Bush on earlier. He really hasnt a f**king clue where Georgia is, never minds whats going on.

My God, have they not enough f**king strife in the world without going and starting another feckin conflict. Really should have feck all to do with them

So this is all America's fault?

Despite the Georgian president's pleas, the US has done  sweet FA so far to support him except call for a ceasefire and fly in two planes full of aid. There are lots of people in the states calling for a much, much tougher response from the Bush administration, basically saying that Putin has called his bluff.

American advisers where in a month before giving war games training to the Georgians, is this supposed to be a coincidence?  Either they messed up and didn't realise that the Russians would kick the Georgians ass, (after the Georgians had murdered several thousand of the south ossetia citizens, leaving the Russians little choice but to protect the citizens of south ossetia) or they thought the Russians would start a civil war with the Georgians giving them the moral high ground and a free rein to attack Iran because ultimately that is what they are looking an excuse to do.  Far too many trillion dollars of oil going out of Iran to Russia and China and the americans want a piece.  If there is trouble in the world anywhere and oil in the vicinity the American administration will be lurking in the background.

With the proviso that I don't know a whole lot about this claim, why does there have to be some cloak and dagger explanation? The Georgians are helping the US in Afghanistan - couldn't these advisers be assisting in training or whatever? Maybe the Georgians bought some US weapons - they are allied to the US after all. What has the US or Georgia said about it?

Personally, I do not know who to believe here, but I am leaning towards the Russians fomenting this and taking advantage when the Georgians took the bait. However, it definitely is clear that there is a large element out there who want to automatically blame the US for everything bad that happens, regardless of the extent of their involvement or the involvement and motives of people like Putin.

[bennydorano]

It's no big secret that the US has been training Georgian soldiers, I've been reading it in the Times daily this week, wasn't aware that it was supposedly a secret.  Cant say I knew a big pile aobut the region but following it this week in the Times has been illuminating.  Been conflict in the area for hundreds of years.

[magickingdom]

Saw that plank Bush on earlier. He really hasnt a f**king clue where Georgia is, never minds whats going on.

My God, have they not enough f**king strife in the world without going and starting another feckin conflict. Really should have feck all to do with them

and you think george bush is dumb? get a mirror

[DrinkingHarp]

By JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press Writer
9 minutes ago



MOSCOW - A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported.

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The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations.

Poland and the United States on Thursday signed a deal for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the United States says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force.

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.

He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax.

At a news conference earlier Friday, Nogovitsyn had reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile-defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But his subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up a war of words.

Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski was quoted Friday by the Polish news agency PAP as saying that Poland is open to Russian inspections because it wants to give Moscow "tangible proof" that the planned base is not directed against Russia.

U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

Russian forces went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of its small, pro-U.S. neighbor, which has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or even to force its government to collapse.

"I think the Russian behavior over the last several days is generally concerning not only to the United States but to all of our European allies," said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, when asked about Russian threats against Poland as a result of the missile defense agreement.

He also suggested that earlier U.S. offers for broad cooperation with Moscow on the missile defense program may be reevaluated considering the latest developments.

Under the agreement that Warsaw and Washington reached Thursday, Poland will accept an American missile interceptor base.

Washington says the planned system, which is not yet operational, is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. The Kremlin, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force and warns it will worsen tensions.

In an interview on Poland's news channel TVN24, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the Eastern European country.

He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble."

That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia.

Poland has all along been guided by fears of a newly resurgent Russia, an anxiety that has intensified with Russia's offensive in Georgia. In past days, Polish leaders said that fighting justified Poland's demands that it get additional security guarantees from Washington in exchange for allowing the anti-missile base on its soil.

"Simply the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said Friday.



Russia is looking to flex more muscle

[J70]

So if Poland takes steps to protect themselves from nuclear missiles they are increasing the chances of those nuclear missiles being delivered by the Russians? Better to leave themselves vulnerable like the Georgians. Is that the Russian logic?

So much for the end of history.

[Yes I Would]

Saw that plank Bush on earlier. He really hasnt a f**king clue where Georgia is, never minds whats going on.

My God, have they not enough f**king strife in the world without going and starting another feckin conflict. Really should have feck all to do with them

and you think george bush is dumb? get a mirror

Yes i do. Please try and argue that he isnt

[J70]

Saw that plank Bush on earlier. He really hasnt a f**king clue where Georgia is, never minds whats going on.

My God, have they not enough f**king strife in the world without going and starting another feckin conflict. Really should have feck all to do with them

and you think george bush is dumb? get a mirror

Yes i do. Please try and argue that he isnt

I don't give a crap how rich and connected you are, you do not get to his position if you're stupid (Harvard do not give out MBAs to just anyone either).

Is he arrogant and cynical and misguided and a poor off-the-cuff speaker? Absolutely, but that is not the same thing.

One thing you have to give him, even if you disagree vehemently with many of his policies, is that he is a leader and not afraid to stick to his guns (often ridiculously so, given some of his decisions and how they appear in retrospect). If only the Democrats had had some leadership with the same guts over the past while.

[Yes I Would]

Ah but surely there was someone with an ounce of wit for the job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijz1CdUj5fg&feature=related