Viva espana - new FIFA rankings

[nifan]

I'm not insulting anyone it's called having a bit of craic.  Fcuk me this place needs it sometimes.  Maybe you don't get my humour but I'm having a laugh.

Especially at Main Street

Yes Main Street it's a term of abuse.....just like chump.

No harm intended and nothing sinister behind it.

I know its humour chris, but sometime I think we go on about it a bit much and it annoys me. Its not you but a general overdoing of it.
Itd be funnier if we didnt do exactly the same thing.

[MW]

That's a bit of a wierd comment.

Going back to out 1982 team, for example, every player in the squad was born in Northern Ireland except two - Jimmy Nicholl, born in Canada to two Northern Irish parents and brought up in Northern Ireland, and Chris Nicholl, born in England to a Northern Irish father.

Jack Charlton's Republic of Ireland would never have made it to the World Cup if they'd played with a similar proportion of Irish-born players - or even second generation Irishmen.

And the current Northern Ireland squad is vastly Northern Irish-born too: evey member of the starting line-up the night we beat Spain in the last qualifiers was born in NI; in the previous qualifiers, when we beat England, out of the whole squad of 17, only 3 were born outside NI.

We can't help if our image is sound and players wanted to be with us in the late 1980's and 1990's whereas NI  was a black hole and you were way down in rankings gutter with Guam
Image
Republic =  jolly craic
NI = grim bástards up North

Do your research onto the time that NI tried out  imports who did come in but did not make the grade.
Wood, Sonner, Coote  Whitley  Sanchez  Jenkins  all got capped but were useless at that standard
It logically follows that if they did make the grade you would have used them.

But because they were shite you want to climb on top the moral high ground and pontificate about our 2nd and 3rd gen Paddies who were class footballers and dead keen Irish nationals

Dowie, Wilson, Black, Horlock, McCarthy, Nolan, Williams are all English born and represented the North during the period.
plus Norsk Capaldi and Deutche Maik Taylor.

Add to that those who politily refused an invite to join NI.

Actually, we only adopted the grandparent rule in 1993 so your claim that players didn't want to play for us is simply a steaming pile of garbage.

The IFA didn't even allow the mother's birthplace to count for eligibility until the mid 1980s.

So, basically you're talking about a few years after the mid-1990s. And you're not even doing that terribly well.

[Main Street]

Actually, we only adopted the grandparent rule in 1993 so your claim that players didn't want to play for us is simply a steaming pile of garbage.

The IFA didn't even allow the mother's birthplace to count for eligibility until the mid 1980s.

So, basically you're talking about a few years after the mid-1990s. And you're not even doing that terribly well.

MW
Do you dispute one of the names of the Plastic Willies that I gave?
or one of the names of the limp Willies  that I gave you who weren't good enough?
Or that the IFA did not ask around for other players?
Or that players refused the invitation to become Plastic Willies?

Would you ever cop on with your ethnic born on the soil superiority hypocrecy -   'we had less plastics than you' -  playground nonsense.

Or the sanctity of  that you only considered to recruit Plastic Willies   en masse - after 1993 UK Association Agreement.

[Evil Genius]

Here is what you posted earlier:
"Cas is a dual national...      ...Same as Ray Houghton, he is a Scot as well as irish. He is equally proud of both."
Explanation?

WTF are you on about?Ray = Scot   = born and raised in Scotland,  thats how I have heard him describe himself.
I have no reason to doubt it as it is a matter of record.
He is of Irish descent therefore he qualified to be an Irish national
He is proud of both.
I have heard him use the  "we" word in reference to Scotland and in reference to Ireland.
Which is the total relevance of what I wrote in relation to the use of the "we" word by dual nationals.
Cas  =  English,  born in England,  acquired Irish nationality, uses  "we" in reference to England and "we" in reference to Ireland.

Obvious to all, except an obsessive stalker who even needed it spelled out that an Irish parent by adoption is just as ethnically real for a lad as an Irish parent by birth.

Just in case you are being obtuse, rather than deliberately evasive, I shall spell out exactly what I am "on about".

Following your clear disparagement elsewhere of the status of NI as a "country", "nationality" etc - fair enough, your interpretation, your opinion - I was struck by something you posted on this thread, which would appear to contradict your ealier proposition.

Namely, you state both Cascarino and Houghton are "Dual Nationals", with which I agree entirely. One of those Nationalities is obviously Irish, which I freely accept is not diminished in any way by virtue of their not having been born in ireland, and/or to two Irish parents etc.

But what I can't get you to spell out is their other Nationality. Is TC "Irish and British" or "Irish and English"? And is RH "Irish and British" or "Irish and Scottish"?

This is important, since if by your reckoning, "Englishness" and "Scottishness" are both bona fide Nationalities, then why isn't "Northern Irishness"? After all, they each (along with "Welshness") have the same constitutional status within the UK...

[MW]

Actually, we only adopted the grandparent rule in 1993 so your claim that players didn't want to play for us is simply a steaming pile of garbage.

The IFA didn't even allow the mother's birthplace to count for eligibility until the mid 1980s.

So, basically you're talking about a few years after the mid-1990s. And you're not even doing that terribly well.

MW
Do you dispute one of the names of the Plastic Willies that I gave?
or one of the names of the limp Willies  that I gave you who weren't good enough?
Or that the IFA did not ask around for other players?
Or that players refused the invitation to become Plastic Willies?

Would you ever cop on with your ethnic born on the soil superiority hypocrecy -   'we had less plastics than you' -  playground nonsense.

Or the sanctity of  that you only considered to recruit Plastic Willies   en masse - after 1993 UK Association Agreement.

My point is, Northern Ireland's selection of a large proportion of non-NI-born players only took place in the mid to late 1990s, then tailed off. Not exactly comparable to the RoI's decades long packing of its squad with non-RoI-born players.

Northern Ireland made it to three World Cups without even allowing players whose mother was from NI to play for them, even mind grandparents. The 1958 squad was I think totally NI-born; the 1982 squad, all but two, and one of those was brought up in NI to two NI parents; the 1986 squad also had only 2 I think born outside NI.

Whereas the Republic is unlikely to have ever made the World Cup with a similarly composed squad.

I don't care what "ethnicity" a player is, so I don't know why you mention it.

I just think it's a greater achievement for Northern Ireland to attain success, such as playing in the World Cup, with Northern Irish players, or the Republic of Ireland to do likewise with Irish players.

[fred the red]

Didnt norn iron try and get dele adebola play for them back in the 90s? 

[MW]

Didnt norn iron try and get dele adebola play for them back in the 90s? 

Aye, embarrassingly. In the mid-late 1990s we tried to take advantage of the then rules that any British citizen born outside the UK could play for any of the UK teams (naturalised citzens or those from the Channel Islands and Isle of Man).

To be fair, that did yield Maik Taylor, who we would have been worse off without.

The only other player it produced for NI was another goalkeeper, Channel Islander Trevor Wood, whose international career consisted of about half an hour as a sub, away to Liectenstein.

[Main Street]

My point is, Northern Ireland's selection of a large proportion of non-NI-born players only took place in the mid to late 1990s, then tailed off. Not exactly comparable to the RoI's decades long packing of its squad with non-RoI-born players.

Northern Ireland made it to three World Cups without even allowing players whose mother was from NI to play for them, even mind grandparents. The 1958 squad was I think totally NI-born; the 1982 squad, all but two, and one of those was brought up in NI to two NI parents; the 1986 squad also had only 2 I think born outside NI.

Whereas the Republic is unlikely to have ever made the World Cup with a similarly composed squad.

I don't care what "ethnicity" a player is, so I don't know why you mention it.

I just think it's a greater achievement for Northern Ireland to attain success, such as playing in the World Cup, with Northern Irish players, or the Republic of Ireland to do likewise with Irish players.

Apparantly you do make a distinction between a dual national and a mono national. And rate one superior to the other.
There is a denigration of their dual nationality as being somehow inferior to a born on the soil national.

I always rated NI for qualifying for the WC finals.
The Republic had some superb players 1982 and 1986 and failed to qualify when NI had less to choose from and achieved much more.
(It cant have been that much of a deal, for NI fans,  were there more than 50 NI fans in Spain?
Maybe 20 in Mexico?)

Dual nationals, mono nationals, never made a difference to me. As long as I can remember we have had a team composed of English based players,  Kids who left Ireland when they 15 or 16. My own family are spread far and wide around the world, my own children are dual nationals, I understand Dual Nationality and how much it means (regardless of the age of awareness) and I understand  and accept the criteria for national team selection in soccer. As long as I can remember I have always had a confidence about my Irishness and an acquired knowledge of the sensibility of our constitution on the issue of nationality eligibility.

I would have thought that the "moral backbone" of  the Charlton era was evident when they came away with Qualification  in that cesspit of hatred, Windsor Park 1991. Once a team displays that solidarity and belief in those circumstances of extreme adversity then they have nothing to prove about the quality of their nationality or questions of pride in that nationality.

[Evil Genius]

I understand Dual Nationality

Go on, then:

Is Tony Cascarino "Irish and British" or "Irish and English"?

And is Ray Houghton "Irish and British" or "Irish and Scottish"?

[T Fearon]

The North of Ireland only qualified for the World Cup Finals of 1982 due to the fact that they were in a shit group with the worst Portuguese and Swedish teams of all time, whereas as the real Ireland team had to deal with the likes of France,Holand etc and were victim to some appalling refereeing decisions, and in 1986 due to England shamefully contriving to draw 0-0 with them in the Wembley fixture, a result which suited both teams.

[Evil Genius]

The North of Ireland only qualified for the World Cup Finals of 1982 due to the fact that they were in a shit group with the worst Portuguese and Swedish teams of all time, whereas as the real Ireland team had to deal with the likes of France,Holand etc and were victim to some appalling refereeing decisions, and in 1986 due to England shamefully contriving to draw 0-0 with them in the Wembley fixture, a result which suited both teams.

You forgot to mention monoculturalism, exclusion of Catholics, collusion, Neil Lennon, the naming of Windsor Park after the English Royal family, the Sunday football ban, Neil Lennon, the Orange Order, Neil Lennon, Drumcree, the English National Anthem blah, blah, blah, blah....  Oh, and Pat Jennings shamefully colluding with Glenn Hoddle to fix the 35 yard "Hoddle Special" which the Newry turncoat appeared to stretch full length to save at Wembley in 1985. Spurs bastards...  Oh, and Gerry Armstrong. Wasn't he another one? Oh well, he'll surely get what's coming to him, won't he? 

P.S. Did I mention Neil Lennon?

[T Fearon]

Glad to see you didn't dispute (therefore you tacitly acknowledge) that the 0-0 draw at Wembley in 1985 was contrived. Sure Jennings and Hoddle would have ran through that free kick scenario millions of times in training.

[Our Nail Loney]

Jesus I wish I hadn't started this thread! Was only pointing out Spain reaching number one!!

[Main Street]

I understand Dual Nationality

Go on, then:
Is Tony Cascarino "Irish and British" or "Irish and English"?
And is Ray Houghton "Irish and British" or "Irish and Scottish"?

You did miss the lesson on dual nationality here in the eligibility debate.
FCK me you guys really do not know your stuff, in that you get so easily fooled by the IFA

For the intellectually slow/impaired, I will spell it out again.

Obviously Tony and Cas are British nationals as they are that by birth.
They have British and Irish nationality

Cas used "we" when he talks about England, I presume he sees himself as English.
I have never heard him call himself British maybe he has maybe he hasn't.

Houghton uses we in reference to Scotland, I know he regards himself as Scottish and Irish
Is that an earth shattering revelation?
John Hartson is called a Welshman, Ryan Giggs is called a Welshman,
Do I need to go on?
If anybody wants to be called Northern Irish, that is their privilege.


BTW, have you removed this scurrilous accusation against GAA members from the OWC board that you wrote with your poison pen?

"Consequently whilst there are no doubt many GAA heads in places like Pomeroy who happily endorse ruthless would-be murderers, equally there will be many more elsewhere who are appalled by such events."

[Evil Genius]

Glad to see you didn't dispute (therefore you tacitly acknowledge) that the 0-0 draw at Wembley in 1985 was contrived. Sure Jennings and Hoddle would have ran through that free kick scenario millions of times in training.

Quite right. In fact, it was all fixed:

Finland 1 v 0 NI (bloody incorruptible Finnish bastards)
NI 3 v 1 Romania (Georgie Hagi? Who?)
NI 2 v 1 Finland (had to bribe the referee, instead)
NI 0 v 1 England (particularly cunning fix, obviously to allay later suspicions)
NI 2 v 0 Turkey (Christmas came early for the Turkey players)
Turkey 0 v 0 NI (what happened there?)
Romania 0 v 1 NI (2 pairs of Levis for each Romanian player, plus some Western Porn for the Manager)
England 0 v 0 NI (FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIX!)

Anmd what's more, it's all on tape!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgstBU1GV8w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG97E9gJ5LM&feature=related
The last one is a particular giveaway, especially the bit from 8 minutes in...

But sure it's no wonder it was fixed, when you're dealing with the likes of Jennings, O'Neill, Armstrong, Donaghy and all those other Fenians...