Another cracker from Barry 'Radar' McElduff

[Donagh]

It seems you're hinting at loyalist paramilitarism but you're going to have to be a bit more explicit for me.

The "Unionist Veto" to which Provisional republicans referred up to 1998 was the right of consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland. That was the only veto that existed, as formulated in the Northern Ireland (Constitution) Act 1973 (hvaing previously been a vote of the Northern Ireland Parliament, as in the Ireland Act 1949).

And that's what dissident republicans, consistent with the pre-1998 position of their former comrades, continue to call the "Unionist veto" today.

The veto was around long before 1998 and obviously refers to a unionist veto not a majority veto.

[Main Street]

The "veto" I was referring to was from the AI agreement when Thatcher introduced the referendum idea for a United Ireland.
That was not legislated for previously.  As we know this referendum idea made it onto the GFA.

The parliamentary veto that is a part of power sharing will ensure that the NI Assembly, as it is constituted, will not work.

[lynchbhoy]

mw the 'island' of Ireland as you put it does have a flag and national anthem
people living in the six counties recognise the Irish Tricolour and 'amhrain na bfiann' national anthem....

Most of them don't. And considering it so doesn't make it so. Islands don't have flags or anthems. Sovereign states do. The Tricolour and A na bhF are the national flag and anthem of the Republic of Ireland.

anyhow
are you saying above that ni is a seperate country now, having been set apart in recent years by uk (lets face it- England !) ?
if so , this must be the first step in disengaging ni from uk, and part of the transition process towards a united Ireland.
This cannot be done so sneakily and cheaply by uk, they are going to have to help fund any such eventual re-join with both money and resources.

er, no, read what I said again. Northern Ireland is defined by the Uk as one of its constituent countries, as are England, Scotland and Wales. The UK is a country by the international standard of being a sovereign independent state.

We ave been over this before, but the Irish flag and the national anthem were created/written FOR the country of Ireland, a united country and one that saw both the Nationalist catholic and unionist protestant sides as equals.

ni is a 'region' not an actual country. Or does it have its place in the UN, nato,EU etc etc ....

as you put it ...Er no !

[nifan]

Or does it have its place in the UN, nato,EU etc etc

Yet these organizations recognise it as part of the UK - so are you saying these guys are the arbitrars here?

[lynchbhoy]

Or does it have its place in the UN, nato,EU etc etc

Yet these organizations recognise it as part of the UK - so are you saying these guys are the arbitrars here?

dry your eyes

is there, or is there not a 'country' represented by a place /flag/delegate at these things ?
(not the other way around)

these are examples of the institutions that fully fledged countries have delegates/positions and people seconded to.

I'll answer this for you as you lads again unite to try and make some kind of weird case for ni to be a 'country' where its not even a province in actuallity, its a provincial set of land that is under dispute and will -like all the other examples in this world (hong kong , rhodesia, northern african territories , india etc etc etc - end up handed back to the 'owners' .
but I hope this does not come without massive injection of cash and pledged work/trade from EU, UK, US etc
That would leave it a bigger ghetto than it is already!

[MW]

It seems you're hinting at loyalist paramilitarism but you're going to have to be a bit more explicit for me.

The "Unionist Veto" to which Provisional republicans referred up to 1998 was the right of consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland. That was the only veto that existed, as formulated in the Northern Ireland (Constitution) Act 1973 (hvaing previously been a vote of the Northern Ireland Parliament, as in the Ireland Act 1949).

And that's what dissident republicans, consistent with the pre-1998 position of their former comrades, continue to call the "Unionist veto" today.

The veto was around long before 1998 and obviously refers to a unionist veto not a majority veto.

Indeed it was - that's the point I've been making. The principle of consent has existed in its present form since 1973.

In Shinner language this principle was, before 1998, referred to as "the unionist veto" - unionists constitute a majority in NI. Of course since then only dissident republicans "remember" this.

Why did SF reject the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation report, after all?

[MW]

The "veto" I was referring to was from the AI agreement when Thatcher introduced the referendum idea for a United Ireland.
That was not legislated for previously.  As we know this referendum idea made it onto the GFA.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The principle of consent in its current form dates back to the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 (and was restated in the Sunningdale Agreement later 1973 with the Irish government's support, as well as in the Anglo-Irish Agreement 12 years later).

A border poll was actually held in Northern Ireland in 1973.

Here's what the Northern Ireland Constitution Act said:

"It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland remains part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom, and it is hereby affirmed that in no event will Northern Ireland or any part of it cease to be part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom without the consent of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1 to this Act."

Here's what the Sunningdale Agreement said:

"The Irish Government fully accepted and solemnly declared that there could be no change in the status of Northern Ireland until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland desired a change in that status. The British Government solemnly declared that it was, and would remain, their policy to support the wishes of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland. The present status of Northern Ireland is that it is part of the United Kingdom. If in the future the majority of the people of Northern Ireland should indicate a wish to become part of a united Ireland, the British Government would support that wish."


Here's what the Good Friday Agreement said, and what was enacted in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which superseded the Constitution Act:

(1) It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1. 
(2) But if the wish expressed by a majority in such a poll is that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.

The parliamentary veto that is a part of power sharing will ensure that the NI Assembly, as it is constituted, will not work.

Maybe. It's too early to tell.

[MW]

We ave been over this before, but the Irish flag and the national anthem were created/written FOR the country of Ireland, a united country and one that saw both the Nationalist catholic and unionist protestant sides as equals.

And the Union Flag was designed to represent the whole of British Isles/Great Britain and Ireland/these islands.

Doesn't change the fact that the Tricoloue is the flag of the RoI and the Union Flag is the flag of the UK.

ni is a 'region' not an actual country. Or does it have its place in the UN, nato,EU etc etc ....

as you put it ...Er no !

So you accept that the United Kingdom is a country, and the island of Ireland is not? OK then.

[MW]

I'll answer this for you as you lads again unite to try and make some kind of weird case for ni to be a 'country'

Whereas you've failed to make any sort of case for the island of Ireland being a country.

You can reject the UK's internal definition of its four "constituent countries" if you want - you can't get away from the international definition, particularly sicne you've cited the UN and the EU. So, you recognise the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a country, not the island of Ireland.

[lynchbhoy]

I'll answer this for you as you lads again unite to try and make some kind of weird case for ni to be a 'country'

Whereas you've failed to make any sort of case for the island of Ireland being a country.

You can reject the UK's internal definition of its four "constituent countries" if you want - you can't get away from the international definition, particularly sicne you've cited the UN and the EU. So, you recognise the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a country, not the island of Ireland.

is Ireland not a country ?
is the Island of Ireland not looked upon as being so by more or less the entire planet ?
Even the English do ! Unless you go and geographically change things !
Yer on a loser there ! I dont have to make a case for what already exists!

I certainly never said the union jack was not meant to rep the uk ?

also you are failing to grasp that I am not saying that uk is not part of the UN etc - are you a bit slow? or always looking to change the argument when losing?
the short and simple fact is that ni is not a country, it doesnt have any international representation, soccer associations do not constitute a country.

I think you will find that Ireland will remain recognised as the island of Ireland and its UN , EU etc delegacy will not alter by the erasure of the border. The only thing that will change is that instead of 55% of ni folk claiming to be british and 45% Irish, the entire Island will be just plain Irish, and matters can move on from there- including the eradication of sectarianism and bigotry through peaceful means.

ahh you will like it when it happens, in a decade or so, there's no need to be afraid. !
you will be treated a lot better than the historical converse.
It will be the same as the integration into the rugby team. No need to put up false bariers and be afraid at all !

[nifan]

is the Island of Ireland not looked upon as being so by more or less the entire planet ?

not by the organisations you cited to prove that ni wasnt a country - your argument about them being proof also proves the island of ireland isnt a country...

I certainly never said the union jack was not meant to rep the uk ?

I think his point was that the UJ at its inception used the st patricks saltire to represent ireland - ergo the flag could be argued to represent ireland, similar to the claim that the tricolour represents all based on the orange bit.

[Donagh]

In Shinner language this principle was, before 1998, referred to as "the unionist veto" - unionists constitute a majority in NI. Of course since then only dissident republicans "remember" this.

I'm not familiar with this "Shinner language" you are talking about but I assume it's the same as that which in common usage among the nationalist population. If so then you are wrong. The "unionist veto" is as I have said, the ability of the unionist side of the community to veto any measure regarding the constitutional status on the six counties.

[Donagh]

The "veto" I was referring to was from the AI agreement when Thatcher introduced the referendum idea for a United Ireland.
That was not legislated for previously.  As we know this referendum idea made it onto the GFA.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The principle of consent in its current form dates back to the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 (and was restated in the Sunningdale Agreement later 1973 with the Irish government's support, as well as in the Anglo-Irish Agreement 12 years later).

A border poll was actually held in Northern Ireland in 1973.

Here's what the Northern Ireland Constitution Act said:

"It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland remains part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom, and it is hereby affirmed that in no event will Northern Ireland or any part of it cease to be part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom without the consent of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1 to this Act."

Here's what the Sunningdale Agreement said:

"The Irish Government fully accepted and solemnly declared that there could be no change in the status of Northern Ireland until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland desired a change in that status. The British Government solemnly declared that it was, and would remain, their policy to support the wishes of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland. The present status of Northern Ireland is that it is part of the United Kingdom. If in the future the majority of the people of Northern Ireland should indicate a wish to become part of a united Ireland, the British Government would support that wish."


Here's what the Good Friday Agreement said, and what was enacted in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which superseded the Constitution Act:

(1) It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1. 
(2) But if the wish expressed by a majority in such a poll is that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.

The parliamentary veto that is a part of power sharing will ensure that the NI Assembly, as it is constituted, will not work.

Maybe. It's too early to tell.

So what happened to the Sunningdale Agreement then? Oh let me see, it wasn't a unionist veto by any chance? The Government of Ireland Act 1920 provided for the Unionist Veto. That Act has been repealed and the Brits must now legally legislate for a reunited Ireland on 50%+1.

[Loughers]

I was in Forkhill and Crossmaglen y'day.  I did not see any border and was not required to show any I.D.  How do our Unionist friends feel about having to show I.D. when entering Britain?  Would you rather see a border set up on the island?

[lynchbhoy]

is the Island of Ireland not looked upon as being so by more or less the entire planet ?

not by the organisations you cited to prove that ni wasnt a country - your argument about them being proof also proves the island of ireland isnt a country...

I certainly never said the union jack was not meant to rep the uk ?

I think his point was that the UJ at its inception used the st patricks saltire to represent ireland - ergo the flag could be argued to represent ireland, similar to the claim that the tricolour represents all based on the orange bit.

Q. does ni have a place at the UN (and others, un is just one example) table ?
A. no

Q.do all people in the world look at Ireland as the one country ?
A. yes

Q. Is Ireland geographically the one country ?
A. yes

Q. was the uj flag created to represent the island of Ireland?
A. no

Q. Was the tricolour flag created to represent the entire Ireland for both catholics and protestants (and Amhrain na bhfiann also)
A. YES

so hard luck girls !
ni is not a country for these and more political, economic and judicial reasons - which I thought were more obvious !