The gap between Munster and Leinster hurling

[The Wedger]

A few weeks ago, everyone was bemoaning the state of Leinster hurling.
Since then:
- Dublin have run Cork close.
- Offaly have beaten Limerick and were close to Waterford
- Wexford were a few inches away from beating Waterford

When you take out Kilkenny, there can't be a huge gap between all the top hurling teams in each province.

[EddieMerx]

As it stands there are 3 Munster teams in the semi's compared to one from Leinster, I think however the current state of play is that yes 3 of the top four are from Munster but the Munster teams appear to have many players in the last year or years of their game.

Waterford - In two years I think they will be the poorest team in Munster and at a level below Wexford, Offaly and Dublin
Limerick - Never made the most of the talent they had and have the look of a team who will fall further behind due to retirements
Cork - Many old faces and new players haven't been blooded, once the current teams disbands it could be a few years before we see a strong Cork side.
Clare - Honest hard working and will always be that way but many of their key players are nearing the end of their hurling life.
Tipp - Set to dominate Munster as they have a good young squad

All in all I think Munster is somewhat fecked, Wexford Offaly and Dublin have shown this year that they have good young squads, is it enough to catch the Cats!! I seriously doubt it considering the age profile of their team and the talent coming up through their ranks.

[AZOffaly]

I don't know if Munster is fecked or not, it may be, and the cycle may be about turn again, (see countless posts of mine defending Leinster counties) but as it stands I think it's fair to say that Wexford and Offaly have at least proved in the last month that Leinster teams are not *as* bad as some would think. The Kilkenny problem (problem for Wexford, Dublin and Offaly that is) needs to be addressed, and is probably as much mental as physical or tactical at this stage, but at full pelt, these counties are able to at least give the Munster counties a game of it. Listening to some people you'd have thought that was crazy talk.

Wexford, Offaly and Dublin are still only after making the first steps on the road though, I don't think anyone could say they are 'back', but at least they have all, to a greater or lesser extent, given us hope that the dancing on the grave of Leinster hurling, masked as concern for the game in general, was a bit premature, or maybe exaggerated.

The next step for these 3 counties is to really make Leinster a competition again, and to start beating Kilkenny (beating them again in Wexford and Offaly's case). That will end the 'debate' once and for all.

For what it's worth, despite tame provincial championships in both Leinster AND Munster, I think this year has been the best so far, of recent times,  for competitive games and good hurling. The best 4 teams are in the semi final, as it should be, and the teams that came through the 'qualifiers' didn't have a stroll, like in previous years.

From an Offaly, and a wider Leinster, perspective, the future is hopeful (I won't say bright just yet) and if the progress is continued, I'd be hopeful we'd be back challenging really seriously in another year or two.

Now is the time to get the uinderage structures right as well, and to get the underage teams hurling in the same manner as the seniors, so that lads can step up and feel a little more comfortable, without trying to adapt their games.

At the moment, most of the Munster counties would still be deserved favourites against Wexford, Offaly and Dublin, but hopefully the days of 31, 22, 19, 14 etc etc drubbings are over.

[Reillers]

I don't see the cycle turning again, not for a while anyway.
Waterford..I don't know what their story with young lads is but we'll have to wait and see with them.
Cork..will only loose I think 2 players this season, and have a lot of young players. Cork have always, unlike Tipp or Clare been able to get their young players to fit in straight away. Like look at the likes of Horgan, Naughton, Shane O Neill, Martin Coleman..etc and they're just the players we've seen this season. There's plenty more. I'm not worried about Cork's future, they'll be around for a good while yet.
Clare..look like they've finally put themselves back on the map. They've got some good young players.
Tipp..again they've great young players who are making an impact.
Limerick....eh....they've got a few they just need someone to bring them back before they fall behind.

As for Leinster.
Dublin..As good as Dublin were Cork were worse. They've got potential but I think it'll be a long time before they make an impact.
Offaly..they've a decent enough team that came out of nowhere..well. But again they don't preform when they need to and were beaten well by Waterford.
Wexford..were in the quarter final but someone had to be there in the Leinster final. They ran Waterford close, they played extremely well but Waterford were wasteful at times, some of their players weren't on form for long periods of that game.

Like I'm not trying to take anything away form the Leinster teams they did well for themselves, but the cycle isn't changing or even evening out unfortunately and KK will continue to have a massive advantage over all the other Munster teams.

[AZOffaly]

Reillers, Offaly were 2 points down with about 5 minutes to go against Waterford. We led them 4 times in the second half, but fell short in the end. That game could easily have been won by Offaly if a couple of things were done differently. Ifs and Buts are useless of course, but to say Waterford won well, implying it was easy, is just absolutely wrong.

Also, Offaly, and Wexford, and Dublin, have a chance to build on something. That's more than the Leinster is Dead brigade would have believed in May. We're not there, but you can't say we are miles behind Clare, Limerick or Waterford. Even Cork. Tipp might, I say Might, be a step above, and Kilkenny certainly are, but other than that, I think it's close enough. As I said, the Munster teams are still probably better, on average, but we're getting there.

Also, before you go ape, when I say Kilkenny are a step above, I mean in terms of their talent and their attitude. That is not to say that on a given day any team, certainly the other 3 left, might take them. I'm not giving the title to the Cats just yet, but they have to be favourites.

[EddieMerx]

I don't see the cycle turning again, not for a while anyway.
Waterford..I don't know what their story with young lads is but we'll have to wait and see with them.
Cork..will only loose I think 2 players this season, and have a lot of young players. Cork have always, unlike Tipp or Clare been able to get their young players to fit in straight away. Like look at the likes of Horgan, Naughton, Shane O Neill, Martin Coleman..etc and they're just the players we've seen this season. There's plenty more. I'm not worried about Cork's future, they'll be around for a good while yet.
Clare..look like they've finally put themselves back on the map. They've got some good young players.
Tipp..again they've great young players who are making an impact.
Limerick....eh....they've got a few they just need someone to bring them back before they fall behind.

As for Leinster.
Dublin..As good as Dublin were Cork were worse. They've got potential but I think it'll be a long time before they make an impact.
Offaly..they've a decent enough team that came out of nowhere..well. But again they don't preform when they need to and were beaten well by Waterford.
Wexford..were in the quarter final but someone had to be there in the Leinster final. They ran Waterford close, they played extremely well but Waterford were wasteful at times, some of their players weren't on form for long periods of that game.

Like I'm not trying to take anything away form the Leinster teams they did well for themselves, but the cycle isn't changing or even evening out unfortunately and KK will continue to have a massive advantage over all the other Munster teams.

Come on Man, Do you even know anything about hurling outside of Cork??? Lets look at Clare, Gilly is 32, Colin Lynch is close to 35, Frank Lohan is also around the 35 mark. Diarmuid McMahon is not shy of the 30 mark either must be 29 or so. Markham must also be around the 30 mark... take those players away from Clare and they are not going to give anyone sleepless nights.

Waterford are screwed, simple as.

Limerick have quiet a few old timers who will go in the next few years!! If they couldn't do anything with the talented U21 teams they had years ago I can't see them doing much with less talented underage teams they have been churning out.

Cork - Sully is 30 but is gone, Deane is 31 or so, both Ben and Jerry are 30 January next, Timmy McCarthy 31, Sean Og 31, Donal Og 31 (although a keeper so has a few more years left) Ronan 29

If you think you are replacing some of the above with the same quality then you really don't know your hurling...

Playing down Wexfords performance yesterday!!!! Wexford were also wasteful at times but you see perhaps that was the nature of the game with neither team getting space to float the ball over the bar. Seriously if you can't admit that as it stands all three of Wexford, Offaly and Dublin have what appear to be good squads for the future then you really don't know hurling.. And if you can't accept that Waterford, Clare, Limerick and to a lesser extent Cork have problems then you really really no nothing about hurling...

[deiseach]

Waterford are screwed, simple as.

Yes. It's that simple . . .

[EddieMerx]

Not meaning to be insulting but in reality take Tony Browne, Ken McGrath and Big Dan out of the team and ye are screwed!!! Tony Browne cleaned up yesterday. The one saving grace for ye is that both Kelly and Mullane have another few years left in their tank but I just don't see the replacements for McGrath and Browne.

[AZOffaly]

deiseach, serious question for you. Were you in Thurles yesterday? I have a question about Waterford's fans. They are great, and bring savage colour and atmosphere to the game, even though a few of them are hairy enough attitude wise. I know that inner city Waterford is a hurling stronghold, unusually for big towns and cities, so that explains that I suppose.

However, are they 'hurling' supporters, or 'Waterford' supporters? In general? Last weekend after the Offaly game, the terrace I was on (The Town end) was heaving with both Offaly and Waterford fans, as well as Cork and Galway. The minute the game was over, the vast, vast majority of Waterford fans left Semple Stadium and headed God knows where. I assumed that maybe a lot of them were on trains or something and were heading to get a train back down, especially with a late enough finish on a Saturday evening.

However, yesterday I was on the Killinan End terrace, and there was a big Waterford contingent again, chanting, clapping them inflatable sticks, the whole lot. Then, again, as soon as their game was over, it was like a dam buirsting as hordes and hordes of white jersies headed for the exits. What's the story? Do they just not like looking at Cork?

Last weekend I was delighted to stay and watch a cracking Cork - Galway game, and yesterday as a neutral I saw two great quarter finals. I can't understand people leaving when the first game is over.

(Likewise, I would always try and get in for the first game if we are on second, but I can understand only coming for the second half or something. I just don't get the leaving after the first game, when you've obviously made the effort to go in the first place).

[Galforever]

That game could easily have been won by Offaly if a couple of things were done differently.

But they didnt which is exactly why leinster hurling are way off mubster hurling.

I just don't get the leaving after the first game, when you've obviously made the effort to go in the first place).

Im with you on this. You see it in double headers all the time. People pay for two matches so why dont they go to the both of them? I want to see quality football / hurling. So I will go to both matches. It seems a lot of fans just stick around for their own counties matches though

[deiseach]

I was at both games. I stayed for the Galway - Cork game and left before the Clare - Cork game, mainly because I felt that forcing my wife to sit through a fourth hurling match in a week - she likes it, but only up to a point - was a bit much, especially given her pale complexion on that sun baked terrace.

Waterford townies are not people who love Waterford but can take or leave hurling. The city is the stronghold of hurling in the county. Not liking Cork? That might be it - we've had a bellyful of the Langers over the last few years - but the animosity towards Clare is still quite palpable among many Waterford fans (I'm happy to report that I'm well over it now) so I don't think that's it either.

Personally I don't think everyone up and down the country wants to watch both games. The paucity of Offaly and Wexford fans - remarkable how few Wexford people were there given the bright future described by EddieMerx - hid their reactions. After the Limerick - Clare match last year in Croke Park, the fans from those respective counties left in droves too. Like you, I'd rather stay. But not everyone is like that.

[AZOffaly]

That game could easily have been won by Offaly if a couple of things were done differently.

But they didnt which is exactly why leinster hurling are way off mubster hurling.

I just don't get the leaving after the first game, when you've obviously made the effort to go in the first place).

Im with you on this. You see it in double headers all the time. People pay for two matches so why dont they go to the both of them? I want to see quality football / hurling. So I will go to both matches. It seems a lot of fans just stick around for their own counties matches though

Way off? Really? Is Offaly beating limerick and losing by 6 points (4 in the last 5 minutes) and Wexford missing a penalty in the last couple of minutes before losing by a point 'Way off'?

If that's the case, what are Galway?

I think the gap has been narrowed significantly. I'm not claiming a miracle has happened since May, but it's not as bad as you seem to think.

[deiseach]

Not meaning to be insulting but in reality take Tony Browne, Ken McGrath and Big Dan out of the team and ye are screwed!!! Tony Browne cleaned up yesterday. The one saving grace for ye is that both Kelly and Mullane have another few years left in their tank but I just don't see the replacements for McGrath and Browne.

Riiight. Take out two players with a few years left in the tank yet, another who is definitely getting on but has basically dedicated his life to staying fit and well (no kiddies messing up his training regimen) and assume there will be zero replacements in that time in spite of the successes in the Croke / Harty Cup (thirteen Waterford boys on the De La Salle team this year) and Tony Forristal tournament, then yeah - we're screwed.

[EddieMerx]

Not meaning to be insulting but in reality take Tony Browne, Ken McGrath and Big Dan out of the team and ye are screwed!!! Tony Browne cleaned up yesterday. The one saving grace for ye is that both Kelly and Mullane have another few years left in their tank but I just don't see the replacements for McGrath and Browne.

Riiight. Take out two players with a few years left in the tank yet, another who is definitely getting on but has basically dedicated his life to staying fit and well (no kiddies messing up his training regimen) and assume there will be zero replacements in that time in spite of the successes in the Croke / Harty Cup (thirteen Waterford boys on the De La Salle team this year) and Tony Forristal tournament, then yeah - we're screwed.

Tony Browne and Ken McGrath along with Dan, I really don't think there is a few years left in the tank for these guys!! Schools and U14 teams - it's great to have good sides but in reality it is hard to say a good 16 year old will be a good senior. The reality is I have not seen any of the current players or recent additions who can replace such fine hurlers. If these players you speak of are kept and turn into fine hurlers well it's a good 5 years before they can step up to the senior team!!! Wtaerford I still think unless they unearth some fine 23 and 24 year olds are screwed until these teenagers become men.

[deiseach]

Wtaerford I still think unless they unearth some fine 23 and 24 year olds are screwed until these teenagers become men.

Last year Stephen Molumphy and Aidan Kearney - I'll set the absence of the latter for the whole year against any of the temps who came on for Wexford yesterday - emerged into the senior ranks. Unless you saw them coming, in which case you would have some insight into underage hurling in Waterford, then you're not in a position to say that Waterford have nothing coming through.