Poll

Should the abortion act be extended to Northern Ireland?

Yes
44 (43.1%)
No
58 (56.9%)

Total Members Voted: 102

Author Topic: MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland  (Read 12246 times)

five points

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Less than two thirds turned out. So, you might say that 1/3 of people didnít care enough to vote. I knew for sure it would pass. Had I had a vote, I donít think Iíd have bothered. The true figure for/against, we donít know.

I doubt the church had much influence on the vote. People have picked and chosen bits of the churcheís teachings over the years, regarding contraception, unmarried living together, sex, etc, so I doubt it influenced peopleís vote. It wouldnít have influenced votes in the north either. Itís not as if nobody goes to mass in the south and everybody goes in the north.

Its worth noting that the Republic's voting register is in an utter mess. An awful lot of people are on it 2, 3 or 4 times as are a lot of people who are living abroad.  Until that's cleaned up, we're unlikely ever to have a large turnout for any election or referendum, fraud notwithstanding.

Armagh18

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At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?
When I think of this debate, I think of young rape victims. I immediately thought of a story I read the other day about the 15 year old with learning difficulties in Armagh who was raped by two Romanian nationals. To my knowledge she didnít fall pregnant but the thought of someone in her position being forced to go through with a pregnancy is disgusting.

Is the thought of a woman deciding to terminate the life of a perfectly healthy child because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions not disgusting?

It's about accountability.
Both are disgusting imo. But donít tell me youíd force that young girl to carry on with that pregnancy?

gallsman

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At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?
When I think of this debate, I think of young rape victims. I immediately thought of a story I read the other day about the 15 year old with learning difficulties in Armagh who was raped by two Romanian nationals. To my knowledge she didnít fall pregnant but the thought of someone in her position being forced to go through with a pregnancy is disgusting.

Is the thought of a woman deciding to terminate the life of a perfectly healthy child because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions not disgusting?

It's about accountability.

And there it is right there folks. SHE doesn't want to deal with the consequences of HER actions.

Twat.
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tonto1888

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When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  ;) not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
 a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? Theyíve been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, itís not the childís fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

How many pregnancies were there?

657,076

1 out of every 3 wains was dumped in the bin.

On demand id say

Assuming the figures you have given are correct, what were the reasons for the abortions?
[/b]

Sorry don't have that data.

But you would assume based on the large number that a high proportion of them are just unwanted inconvenient pregnancies.

I wouldnít make any assumptions

tonto1888

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Regarding abortion, Iím glad itís been decriminalised. I fully agree with giving women full autonomy over their own bodies.  That said I would hope thereís nobody using it as after the act contraception.

Regarding SSM there is absolutely no good reason to even try and stop it

RadioGAAGAA

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That said I would hope thereís nobody using it as after the act contraception.

Seriously?

You look at the English figures and say "I would hope there is nobody using it as after the act contraception"?


Get real.
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RadioGAAGAA

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The only groups and prominent individuals campaigning against repeal were Catholic. While the impact was negligible, the intent was there.

Unfortunately the church are unwanted by many in the debate as they undermine any rational argument.

There are sound scientific arguments for severely restricting abortion. Which are all undermined by pointing to a 2000 year old book of tales.  ::)
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tonto1888

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That said I would hope thereís nobody using it as after the act contraception.

Seriously?

You look at the English figures and say "I would hope there is nobody using it as after the act contraception"?


Get real.

Want to elaborate on what was wrong with what I said?

RadioGAAGAA

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Want to elaborate on what was wrong with what I said?

If you hope there is nobody using it as a form of contraception you are deluded.
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tonto1888

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Want to elaborate on what was wrong with what I said?

If you hope there is nobody using it as a form of contraception you are deluded.

I would like to think thatís the case. I may well be wrong. But you know what? Itís not for me to tell any woman what to do with their body. Or any man for that matter.

Main Street

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Want to elaborate on what was wrong with what I said?

If you hope there is nobody using it as a form of contraception you are deluded.
The conception has already happened therefore that horse has bolted. Unless there is some compelling research to say otherwise I seriously doubt there are more than a miniscule nr of woman who would accept the riskof conception  with the thought that she can always have an abortion and go through that extreme  hormonal reversal disturbance.
If there is some doubt after the sexual encounter, the morning after pill is an option (assuming sex took place at night),  still though not even the morning after piill should be regarded as an alternative to contraception, but an emergency intervention.

BennyCake

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Of course thereís some who use abortion as a means of contraception. 200,000 in uk annually, theyíre not all rape, incest cases. Youíre naive if you think otherwise.

Angelo

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At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?
When I think of this debate, I think of young rape victims. I immediately thought of a story I read the other day about the 15 year old with learning difficulties in Armagh who was raped by two Romanian nationals. To my knowledge she didnít fall pregnant but the thought of someone in her position being forced to go through with a pregnancy is disgusting.

Is the thought of a woman deciding to terminate the life of a perfectly healthy child because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions not disgusting?

It's about accountability.
Both are disgusting imo. But donít tell me youíd force that young girl to carry on with that pregnancy?

You're talking about the exceptional circumstances.

Plenty of rape victims will give birth to a child by the product of rape and that child may be the pride and joy of their lives.

Other rape victims will terminate a pregnancy and it may haunt them for the rest of their life.

I don't think terminating a pregnancy is a solution to the trauma of rape.

Main Street

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Of course thereís some who use abortion as a means of contraception. 200,000 in uk annually, theyíre not all rape, incest cases. Youíre naive if you think otherwise.
Considering that conception has already happened in a 100% of cases, abortion is not a means of contraception by any measure.

Do you have access to some research on the matter that would lay credence to more than a miniscule nr of women who would choose to take the risk of getting pregnant in the safe knoweledge that they can always go throught the trauma of abortion to abort the pregnancy? And also avoid (the much easier by comparison) trip to the pharmacy to purchase a morning after pill.

RadioGAAGAA

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The conception has already happened therefore that horse has bolted. Unless there is some compelling research to say otherwise I seriously doubt there are more than a miniscule nr of woman who would accept the riskof conception  with the thought that she can always have an abortion and go through that extreme  hormonal reversal disturbance.
If there is some doubt after the sexual encounter, the morning after pill is an option (assuming sex took place at night),  still though not even the morning after piill should be regarded as an alternative to contraception, but an emergency intervention.

I take your point - you are correct.

As far as this particular subset of the wider argument goes, the detailed terminology doesn't really matter. Its folks essentially seeing abortion as a more extreme approach to contraception - yes, its post conception but the end goal is the same.

As for going to the pharmacy - I'd *expect* that most don't think of it happening to them, thus unnecessary to go near tablets, till its too late. But that is a pretty wide generalisation and obviously open to much contrary opinion.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 09:01:35 PM by RadioGAAGAA »
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