Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture

[Aerlik]

Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege...

Hats off...rather clever quibble there.  However, as The Skull followed up with... the siege is questionable as to its existance, but the mentality has been there for manys a year.  Please don't deride a very good, discussion (note how it hasn't for the most part degenerated into a them'uns and us'uns) by suggesting that it is a modern phenomenon

[Evil Genius]

It would appear there is an understanding amongst those who subscribe primarily to a Northern Ireland identity, that if there is an expression of  Gaelic culture in NI, it is primarily an expression of NI culture and if it just happens to "overlap" with southern Gaelic Culture then so be it, that's a side effect.
A nice theory

I hope that "those who subscribe primarily to a NI identity" is not a reference to me*, when I posted: "Of course, none of this precludes those such as Griffin, Clingan and McGuigan also having very strong identification with more typically Irish/Gaelic cultural expressions, but these things are rarely entirely homogeneous; rather, there are frequent overlaps"?

If not, then accept my apology, but if it should be, then some clarification is needed. I was not appropriating expressions of Gaelic culture, as practiced in NI, as being Northern Irish. Rather, it is quite possible, in my experience, for the same individual to identify with more than one tradition or culture, depending on circumstances. For example, I believe that in Traditional Irish music, there is/was a pecularly Donegal style of fiddling. Yet some of the great proponents were actually Protestants, whose background will (at least originally) have been the very definition of Ulster Scots. That being so, it is likely that some of their styles, rhythms and tunes etc may actually have their origins in Scotland - albeit hundreds of years earlier. How would you define their contribution to the culture, then? Scottish? Irish? Ulster? Ulster Scots? I dare say some of their descendants are now e.g. Gaelic Footballers or Hurlers, so are they now Gaels? And should some of them instead be Cricketers or Hockey players (there's a small "colony" in parts of East Donegal etc), are they Planters? And what about those who play both?

Or to take a neighbour of the oft-cited Seamus Heaney, Martin O'Neill. As a native of Kilrea with that surname, who went to St.Colombs in Derry, played Gaelic Football enthusiastically and later went on to manage Glasgow Celtic, it can easily be argued his identity is impeccably 100% Irish. Yet he also went to Queens University to study Law, where he might have qualified as a Barrister or Solicitor in the UK Legal System. Instead, he has made his career in British football, including captaining NI proudly many times, never giving less than 100%. Celtic are a British club (no matter how loudly some of their fans might deny it) and O'Neill was also more than keen to manage England, had he been given the choice. As it was, he accepted an MBE from Her Majesty for services to (British) football.

Now I daresay O'Neill considers himself "Irish", and I have absolutely no objection to that. How could I? But I don't doubt that he would also concede that he has been subject to British influences and culture, indeed contributed more than his share to one aspect of them, so that it would also be correct, whatever the percentages, to describe him as being "Northern Irish". In the end, all that matters is that each individual be allowed to describe himself as being whatever the Hell he likes and be allowed to live in a society/state which accomodates that. Thereafter, if Martin O'Neill ever decided he wanted to manage the NI football team (I know, I know, he won't), I'd have him like a shot. But if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.

[heganboy]

EG, great post, I doubt that even the most dyed in the wool Republican growing up in the wee six could deny that to some extent their upbringing has been influenced by the British way of life, even to the extent of Radio and tv.
However I feel I must take issue with one of your points

But if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.

Bollocks- he should then be taken out and shot with a blunt bullet (so that it hurts more)

[Aerlik]

Or to take a neighbour of the oft-cited Seamus Heaney, Martin O'Neill. As a native of Kilrea with that surname, who went to St.Colombs in Derry, played Gaelic Football enthusiastically and later went on to manage Glasgow Celtic, it can easily be argued his identity is impeccably 100% Irish. Yet he also went to Queens University to study Law, where he might have qualified as a Barrister or Solicitor in the UK Legal System. Instead, he has made his career in British football, including captaining NI proudly many times, never giving less than 100%. Celtic are a British club (no matter how loudly some of their fans might deny it) and O'Neill was also more than keen to manage England, had he been given the choice. As it was, he accepted an MBE from Her Majesty for services to (British) football.

Now I daresay O'Neill considers himself "Irish", and I have absolutely no objection to that. How could I? But I don't doubt that he would also concede that he has been subject to British influences and culture, indeed contributed more than his share to one aspect of them, so that it would also be correct, whatever the percentages, to describe him as being "Northern Irish". In the end, all that matters is that each individual be allowed to describe himself as being whatever the Hell he likes and be allowed to live in a society/state which accomodates that. Thereafter, if Martin O'Neill ever decided he wanted to manage the NI football team (I know, I know, he won't), I'd have him like a shot. But if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.

It's convenient that Celtic are a "british" club when it comes to counting the number of "british" teams that have won the European Cup, ie, " Well, you ARE Scottish but just so as you don't get above your station and start spouting off how a Scottish team won the cup before an English team did we'll call you british" or that Stephen Roche was the "first English-speaking" winner of the tour de France.  Fcuk I will never forgive Phil Liggett for saying that.  Twat.  Just acknowledge that an Irishman beat an English man to something.  And if I were offered the position of Chair of Rio Tinto, I would take it.  Could retire after 6 months considering the salary; therefore our Martin is only after the brass.  Sure he's not interested in the statelet, but if he were offered the role of manager of a 32-county Ireland team, I have absolutely no doubt he'd do it...probably for free.

[Evil Genius]

Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege...

Hats off...rather clever quibble there.  However, as The Skull followed up with... the siege is questionable as to its existance, but the mentality has been there for manys a year.  Please don't deride a very good, discussion (note how it hasn't for the most part degenerated into a them'uns and us'uns) by suggesting that it is a modern phenomenon

I wasn't quibbling, nor trying to be "clever", never mind "deriding" the discussion. I happily accept that the "Siege", as characterised by e.g. the Provo "Armed Struggle", or the Republic's dropping of its claim to jurisdiction over NI, has been largely dismantled. Indeed, I would argue that in so far as the GFA represents a "settlement" of the recent conflict, the Unionists have actually come much nearer to "winning" the argument than Republicans (feel free to disagree, btw, it's just my opinion).
And whether Unionists admit it in such terms or not (and many don't), now the guns without the walls have been silent for some years, many are increasingly ready to lower the drawbridge and venture back out into the outside world. Otherwise, how else do you explain the transformation of Paisley, from throwing snowballs at Sean Lemass when he came North to visit Terence O'Neill, to sharing tea and cakes with Bertie Ahern in Dublin, some 40 years later? Or the willingness to nip overthe border for cheap petrol, often on a Sunday, at that! 
However, it is not easy to shake off a mindset which has evolved over decades, from a historical perspective going back centuries, just like that. Otherwise, all those people, on both sides, who were displaced by the Troubles, would now be clamouring for the "Peace Walls" to be torn down, so that they could move back to the former homes from which they were forced out during The Troubles, which quite evidently they're not. And that mindset applies equally, in my opinion, to both communities.

Anyhow, by coincidence I was reading earlier today an account of the Williamite/Jacobite war in Ireland of 1688-90, which concentrated on The Siege of Derry. This event, though by no means the only, or even the first, such Siege, has an incredible emotional pull on Northern Unionists - to equal anything felt by their Nationalist counterparts, such as the Flight of The Earls, or Easter 1916. Yet whilst James's forces were besieging Derry, they were also attempting to lay siege to Enniskillen, the other remaining centre of Williamite resistance in Ulster. But whilst the Apprentice Boys' cry on closing the gates was "NO SURRENDER", the Enniskilleners adopted a very different approach:
"WE STAND UPON OUR GUARD, AND DO RESOLVE BY THE BLESSING OF GOD RATHER TO MEET OUR DANGER THAN EXPECT IT"
Consequently, they successfully harried and disrupted James's forces throughout the whole of South West Ulster, even to within 30 miles of Dublin on one occasion! To my mind, theirs should be the greater example to modern day Unionists (without the pikes and Cannons, obviously!), than that of the Derrymen. And imo, that confidence should also be reflected in that community's culture, as well as its politics.
http://www.libraryireland.com/Derry1689/VI-1.php

How is it the old song goes? "And if, you know, your History..." 

[Evil Genius]

EG, great post, I doubt that even the most dyed in the wool Republican growing up in the wee six could deny that to some extent their upbringing has been influenced by the British way of life, even to the extent of Radio and tv.

Thank You. But believe me, the most dyed in the wool Republicans in the wee six do deny it, regardless of how preposterous their claims may be. Just as some of their "Loyalist" [sic] counterparts are so determined to prove their "Britishness", that they run around in England football tops, rather than those (fenian green) NI ones! No matter, they're all going the way of the Dinosaur, thank goodness.

However I feel I must take issue with one of your points

But if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.

Bollocks- he should then be taken out and shot with a blunt bullet (so that it hurts more)

I have no idea why I typed "Tyrone". It should have read "Armagh"...


















Only kidding. Of course, I meant Londonderry 

P.S. As a prescribed punishment for such apostacy, my father's version was: "May he be shot with a ball of his own dung!" 

[Evil Genius]

It's convenient that Celtic are a "british" club when it comes to counting the number of "british" teams that have won the European Cup, ie, " Well, you ARE Scottish but just so as you don't get above your station and start spouting off how a Scottish team won the cup before an English team did we'll call you british" or that Stephen Roche was the "first English-speaking" winner of the tour de France.  Fcuk I will never forgive Phil Liggett for saying that.  t**t.  Just acknowledge that an Irishman beat an English man to something.  And if I were offered the position of Chair of Rio Tinto, I would take it.  Could retire after 6 months considering the salary; therefore our Martin is only after the brass.  Sure he's not interested in the statelet, but if he were offered the role of manager of a 32-county Ireland team, I have absolutely no doubt he'd do it...probably for free.

f**k me! From 12,000 miles and a whole different Continent away, the most objectionable point in an entire (longish) post you can come up with was my description of Glasgow Celtic as a "British" club! And you accused me earlier of "quibbling"...

Jeez, I'm glad I didn't ask you who's your Head of state out in Oz! 

[ziggysego]

What's with all the Scottish flags this year? See them in all towns this year as part of the official flag and bunting.

[Solomon Kane]

I think you should do a good bit more research into culture on the Island
I would consider it to be a nonsense arrogant opinion to regard the examples I gave as "overlap".
Sara Makem or Tommy Makem  or Harp music  -  an overlap from Northern Ireland into Irish culture?  

I use the term overlap because I believe people from Northern Ireland no matter what their background have real differences separating them from both the rest of the UK and the rest of Ireland. Therefore I believe any influences from across the border or across the Irish sea are indeed "overlaps" (for want of a better word. If you don't believe me have a look round some of the discussions on this site were "Nordies" and "Freestaters" accuse each other of not understanding certain issues. The simple truth is that Unionists and Nationalists in NI have much more in common with each other than they do with any of the immediate neighbours.

You might want to read up on the culture of the Island a bit yourself if you think Colin Bateman is a comedian - he is actually a fairly successful author. As for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.

[Main Street]

I use the term overlap because I believe people from Northern Ireland no matter what their background have real differences separating them from both the rest of the UK and the rest of Ireland. Therefore I believe any influences from across the border or across the Irish sea are indeed "overlaps" (for want of a better word.

Belief has nowt to do with it. Gaelic culture has been around centuries before partition, there is no overlapping, it is already part of the soil.
it functions as an Island culture. It's a common heritage with a myriad of styles. Borders don't matter in that context.

You might want to read up on the culture of the Island a bit yourself if you think Colin Bateman is a comedian - he is actually a fairly successful author

I said I didn't know of him, I had already professed 100% ignorance.
I'll keep an eye out for his stuff. I'm already curious.

As for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.

I said true enough to your original statement.
I was not referring to troubles as in war troubles. Just despair at the political/social process.

[Solomon Kane]

As for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.

I said true enough to your original statement.
I was not referring to troubles as in war troubles. Just despair at the political/social process.

It's getting better and better every day - if all goes well over the weekend it will be proof we are heading towards a fairly normal society. "Cycle Of Violence" is a good jumping on point for Bateman's work. He also writes Murphy's Law for TV.

[Fishbat]

I think you should do a good bit more research into culture on the Island
I would consider it to be a nonsense arrogant opinion to regard the examples I gave as "overlap".
Sara Makem or Tommy Makem  or Harp music  -  an overlap from Northern Ireland into Irish culture?  

I use the term overlap because I believe people from Northern Ireland no matter what their background have real differences separating them from both the rest of the UK and the rest of Ireland. Therefore I believe any influences from across the border or across the Irish sea are indeed "overlaps" (for want of a better word. If you don't believe me have a look round some of the discussions on this site were "Nordies" and "Freestaters" accuse each other of not understanding certain issues. The simple truth is that Unionists and Nationalists in NI have much more in common with each other than they do with any of the immediate neighbours.

You might want to read up on the culture of the Island a bit yourself if you think Colin Bateman is a comedian - he is actually a fairly successful author. As for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.

But surely thats an Ulster thing, a provincial closeness - we are all Ulstermen after all so of course we should be closer.  Will get closer with a bit of simple good neighbourliness......Theres spakes i hear that no-one even outside the county, and sometimes parish, would have heard off

Can anyone who has been brought up in other provinces and moved to another see any differences between where they were brought up and where they now live?

I think the Provincial scene in Ireland still has a fairly big influence on us, have noticed it a bit in bars where theres a Leinster/Ulster friendliness and a Connaught/Munster buddiness......then again same outfit will be batein other the next night!

[Yes I Would]

f**king BBC 5 day forecast predicting sunshine for Saturday and not a shower in site. The one day i  pray for it to pish!!

[Fishbat]

f**king BBC 5 day forecast predicting sunshine for Saturday and not a shower in site. The one day i  pray for it to pish!!

There'll be a shower alright, a shower of klansmen

[ziggysego]

f**king BBC 5 day forecast predicting sunshine for Saturday and not a shower in site. The one day i  pray for it to pish!!

No don't. I've a wedding that day.