Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture

[nifan]

you find that amusing?

[Evil Genius]

As far as I can see, whatever artistically merited cultural expression comes out of Protestant/Unionist/British Identified born in Northern Ireland, doesn't identify itself with Unionist/Orange/Loyalist tradition. For the most part it just ends up being part of and sometimes integral part of Irish culture.

I've not bothered to get embroiled in this debate, since it seems for some posters (at least) merely to be an excuse to "bash" the other side - "You have no culture", "My culture's better than yours" etc.

However, I would point to one part of Ulster-Scots/Unionist/Protestant culture which has been overlooked i.e. the military tradition. To quote some random examples, Enniskillen remains the only town in the British Isles to give its name to two British Army Regiments (Dragoons and Fusilleers). And the Somme has a deeply imprinted place in Ulster folk consciousness, which remains to this day. Ulster also produced many eminent Generals during WWII, including Montgomery, Dill, Auchinleck, Alanbrook etc. If you visit the various C of I Cathedrals throughout NI (and Dublin), these usually display various Regimental Colours and tributes, reflected also in the graveyards etc. Similarly, every town seems to have a War Memorial, sometimes several, commemorating not just the two World Wars, but the Boer Wars and others. And people often don't even notice the various Royal British Legion Halls in their towns and villages. Or on a recent BBC NI documentary on the Royal Schools, they pointed out that Dungannon has a thriving Combined Cadet Force. Even today, there are RIR troops fighting out in Afghanistan and Iraq (plus NI people in other Regiments and RAF and RN), with Col. Tim Collins being a particular hero.

I make this point not in order to be contentious - I appreciate that in the context of The Troubles, this can be highly divisive - but it is an undeniable aspect of our culture which means a huge amount to people from my tradition, and which long pre-dates The Troubles and will no doubt endure long after. Which is why, for example, the Poppy Day Massacre was felt so deeply, or why so many Oramgemen cling so dearly to some of their marches (e.g. Drumcree), since these often commemorate much more recent, non-Irish conflicts (e.g Somme) than the Boyne etc. A good illustration is also to be found in "Sam's War", a memoir by Sam McAughtrey, when he recounted his experiences in WWII.

P.S. I was minded to make this point by MS's last point (emboldened), where it could be argued that there is also a tradition of involvement by Irish Nationalists in the British Armed Forces, which presumably stemmed in part from the involvement of their Unionist/Orange/Ulster Scots fellow Irishmen i.e. the other way round to what MS observes. Indeed, McAughtrey makes the point that when they were out fighting in Italy etc, all local differences between Orange and Green etc were quickly forgotten, as Irishmen from both sides of the divide invariably got on better with each other than with their English, Scottish or Welsh fellow soldiers!    

[Solomon Kane]

Anyway Louis, afaik, was born into a home rule protestant family  

It may be a stretch to call MacNeice a unionist, but he was certainly not a nationalist by any means. He had a strongly British viewpoint about many things.

As for Seamus Heaney never tipping a glass to the Queen - we all saw how much of a load of crap that turned out to be, despite his denials.

Like it or not, there is a distinctly Northern Irish culture of literature, drama, comedy, broadcasting etc which is decidedly seperate from that of the Irish Republic. This does not make it Unionist but in being distinctly "Northern Irish" as opposed to "Irish" does it not make it a polar opposite to nationalist culture?

[Main Street]

It may be a stretch to call MacNeice a unionist, but he was certainly not a nationalist by any means. He had a strongly British viewpoint about many things.

As for Seamus Heaney never tipping a glass to the Queen - we all saw how much of a load of crap that turned out to be, despite his denials.

Like it or not, there is a distinctly Northern Irish culture of literature, drama, comedy, broadcasting etc which is decidedly seperate from that of the Irish Republic. This does not make it Unionist but in being distinctly "Northern Irish" as opposed to "Irish" does it not make it a polar opposite to nationalist culture?

Why do you feel a need to express cynicism about Seamus Heaney?

There is no question of like it or not. I am trying to find out what it is.
And what it is in relation to the ethnic group that is British Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture.

If you are talking about the entity that is Northern Ireland, I think you will find that actually being 'Northern Irish' is not a prime identity.
That is another topic
Are you talking about a Northern Irish culture, seperate from the the rest of the Ireland.
For example
Most people, (and the artists themselves)  would regard Sara Makem as having a distinct Armagh style but still Gaelic Irish culture.
Same with her son.
Likewise Derek Bell and Cathal McConnell have a very distinct style but it is still Irish culture.

[MW]

Like I say, I dont think you realise the level of indoctrination you have had and are emitting.
I dont have to say anything like this to the likes of eg solomon kane, as at least that poster is honest and will debate the point honestly. The southern crew dont understand how you and your ilk 'play' it and dont see your otherwise seeingly harmless jibes.
but when you have seen people like you over a lifetime, its easier to spot.
how about being honest and debating like a man from now on instead of this wee sniping!

I really do feel sorry for you. So mired in your own prejudice and hatred that you identify everyone you perceive as a Protestant/unionist as a bigot, those that don't actually show any signs of it are being cunning in their bigotry. All of 'them' have been indoctrinated, they must be because they disagree with your bile.

I'd be horrified to find myself trapped in a mindset like yours.

[Solomon Kane]

If you are talking about the entity that is Northern Ireland, I think you will find that actually being 'Northern Irish' is not a prime identity.
That is another topic
Are you talking about a Northern Irish culture, seperate from the the rest of the Ireland.

You are wrong. "Northern Irish" is an identity. I feel Northern Irish as my prime identiy, with the Irish and Britis elements increasingly irrelevant to me as time goes by. Because you and others may not agree with it or recognise it doesn't mean that it's not there. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Colin Bateman's work isn't distinctly Northern Irish, when he uses humour that many ROI citizens may feel totally alien to them? Or the late James Young for that matter? Of course there is an overlap in Northern Ireland with wider Irish culture, but there is a distinct element which cannot be ignored or denied. There is also an overlap with British culture in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. I will concede that the some of the wider "Irish" culture has a more universal appeal, which is obvious in the success of Riverdance or Roddy Doyle or Maeve Binchy abroad. However, having read some of Roddy Doyle's books I would say that they could have been set in Liverpool or Glasgow and not needed to have been changed too much.
The troubles have shaped Northern Ireland in a way that the Republic has not been affected by. Sad but true.

[MW]

-To suggest that Unionists attempt to include the 3 counties in everything they do is pretty ludicrous

Well yes it would be, but then I didn't say anything of the sort

-To suggest that Unionists attempt to include the 3 counties in everything they do is pretty ludicrous given that the present day forms of the party, the Ulster Unionist and Democratic Unionist Party do not, as far as I can see, stand for election in said counties. Donegal, for example, had a significant amount of Unionist clubs before partition. I believe the phrase used was "Cast aside without one single sign of recollection or recognition," I think by an Anglican Minister in Fermanagh. Now obviously this is ancient history and not exactly in living memory but it does exemplify abandonment akin to that of a sinking ship, which incidentally was a metaphor used pretty freely in relation to such a break at the time.

You appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that I was talking about Unionist politics. I clearly wasn't. I was talking about aspects of Ulster-British culture. If you read 'The Ulster Scot' (newsletter thing) it quite regularly refers to communities and people in places like East Donegal and north Monaghan. The Ulster-Scots Agency is of course a cross-border body. And not that I'm using the Orange Order as the example of Ulster-British culture, but the Rossnowlagh parade and the regular involvement of lodges from Cavan for example in their parades in NI is a fact.

- I believe the term used was indeed, Ulster-Scots dancing, replete with a very Irish looking costume. Maybe that was the mistake of the announcer but in any case if the two forms of dance are inseparable to the naked eye then one might consider claims of individuality to be shaky at best. I'm not so sure Scots dancing is that popular in Scotland, in fact I've never even really heard of it being a significant part of their culture- are you talking about highland dancing or country dancing, anyway? I do not have a qualification in dance or the study of it, by the way. To paraphrase myself earlier even a cursory glance at me on a dance-floor would tell you more about my alcohol intake than any education in waltzes or more contemporary forms of getting jiggy with it.

Scottish dancing, highland or whatever (the authenticity of Scottish/Highland cultural expressions...now that's another thing) is similar to but still different from Irish dancing. I'd be very surprised if it was just Irish dancing with an Ulster-Scots label put on it.

-The reason why the 26 counties are called Ireland is more to do with the fact that the government itself claimed to have jurisdiction over the whole Island up until that minor treaty signed on the back of a used Postcard of the Giant's Causeway around 10 years ago, on that day your man nailed himself to the cross, rather than any division between "us" and "them." Most Irish people I've talked to (and I've talked to a lot, lived with a lot, played Football and Soccer with a lot, and went to class with a lot) seem to be of the opinion that I am, indeed, Irish, and have lived in Ireland for most of my life. My passport would nod in agreement if it weren't being passed around the backstreets of Atha Cliath right now.

As of 1999, (and Im assuming you're from NI here), the 'Ireland' referred to on the cover of your passport is not the 'Ireland' you're from. You're not from Ireland, not the 'Ireland' that held a referendum on the Lisbon treaty recently, or has the euro as its currency, or Brian Cowan as its head of government. (Google "Ireland and Northern Ireland" for a manifestation of this).

The funny thing is, while I'm not a fan of the neighbouring state on this island calling itself Ireland, I would expect nationalists to be most annoyed about the 26 counties being Ireland.

I in turn am happy to refer to our territory as the following: British-Occupied Ireland, Unionist Ireland, Ulster minus three, Ulst (each letter representing one and a half counties!), The Occupied Six Counties, Six of the Seven Most Northerly Counties on the Island of Ireland, Ulster-Scotland, the bad place, the good place, where George Best came from, and sometimes, just sometimes, North-East Ireland. Northern Ireland for me serves a function in detailing the finer points of Mallon Head, which incidentally extremely Northern, and indeed, in Ireland.

Northern Ireland has been defined under law and international treaty, it's the most accurate name to use. Equally Ireland or the Republic of Ireland for the state on the other side of the border, but I find the former can lack clarity...

-Linguistically, unless registered as a sub-division of Scots in itself, it isn't a language. You can pass laws all you want but it's akin to passing a law saying that my slurred intonation of English when under the influence of a few pints of Leinster's finest beverage... that's right, Harp... constitutes a new form of communication. Although obviously not the product of a social and cultural legacy like Ulster-Scots is, it's similarly a bastardisation of English. One is tempted to compare the intoxication of me by alcohol to the intoxication of the settlers themselves with grandiose notions of their right to beat taigs down like gophers, but I think it's a leap too far.

My turn of phrase begs the question, though: Is taig an Ulster-Scots word? Read Castle Rackrent by Maria Edgeworth and it has constant reference to some lad called "Thady," an Anglicised form of the word/name Tadhg. Similarly, you may notice that the pejorative "taig" is in itself derived from Teague, in turn an Anglicisation of the same word. Take it away, Seamus:

"Ulster people, according to Rodgers, are 'an abrupt people / who like the spiky consonants of speech / and think the soft ones cissy', and get a kick out of 'anything that gives or takes attack / like Micks, Teagues, tinkers' gets, Vatican'."

Pretty self explanatory, you should think. He goes on to compare the Old English verb for suffering with a colloquialism of his (Catholic!) aunt, then notes:

"What happened was that I found in the glossary to C. L. Wrenn's edition of the poem the Old English word meaning 'to suffer', the word þolian; and although at first it looked completely strange with its thorn symbol instead of the familiar th, I gradually realized that it was not strange at all, for it was the word that older and less educated people would have used in the country where I grew up. 'They'll just have to learn to thole,' my aunt would say about some family who had suffered through an unforeseen bereavement. And now suddenly here was 'thole' in the official textual world, mediated through the apparatus of a scholarly edition, a little bleeper to remind me that my aunt's language was not just a self-enclosed family possession but an historical heritage, one that involved the journey þolian had made north into Scotland and then across unto Ulster with the planters, and then across from the planters to the locals who had originally spoken Irish, and then farther across again when the Scots Irish emigrated to the American South in the eighteenth century. "

So it's a heritage, alright. A melting pot of words and pronunciation, meshed from the twin primordial oozes of modern language on these Isles, Gaelic and Latin, along with the later Germanic, Latin influenced Anglo-Saxon that formed into early English and then early Modern English all the way to that which is spoken on these islands in different dialects. Dialects, though, whilst separate in a number of different ways to each other, are branches of the same family tree of a language in an orchard of trees, some dead and some living. Cut off a branch and it won't survive.

I'm still not sure why you have such a low opinion of Ulster Scots given that your opinion of Scots doesn't seem nearly so low. I certainly don't agree with some of how it's been promoted, that said, and indeed agree with the brilliantly named Alliance councillor Ian Parsley (yep, in North Down the two main Ulster Scots enthusiats among politicans are in the SDLP and the Alliance Party) that 'Scots in Ulster' might be a more helpful term, or at least way to view it.

Read this: http://www.fb10.uni-bremen.de/anglistik/kerkhoff/DubPoetry/Agard/AgardOxfordDon.html

and it's pretty easy to see what I'm talking about.

You should read Heaney's introduction into Beowulf if you haven't, by the way. It'll enlighten the f**k out of you.

(Check this out for a cracking link-up, even if I do say so myself )

Funny enough back when I was studying Anglo-Saxon history and, that week, specifically the language and literature, my tutor, who actually was an Oxford don ironically (bingo! ) recommended Heaney's translation of Beowulf. Though he referred to Heaney as a British writer Never got round to it but shall endeavour to check it out.

Isn't Black English a cultural manifestation? Not quite the same kettle of fish as Scots mind you, which was an official state language (as far as your could have such a thing in the seventeenth century) and has been to some extent eroded since by English ('standard English').

[MW]

So far the distinguishing cultural tradition of the British in NI are the historical events about that identity and the continued affirmation of the importance of that identity.

Somebody mentioned Louis McNeice.
It's not a question of somebody who grows up in NI with a protestant background and is good at poetry or song etc like Louis or  James Galway.
Anyway Louis, afaik, was born into a home rule protestant family  
If you'd mention Louis then why not mention the acclaimed Derek Bell or Shaun Davey -  especially the obvious  'Relief of Derry Symphony',
they use the medium of (contemporary) trad music.
Van M  wrote songs about growing up in Belfast or even acclaimed playwright  Maire Jones wrote plays about life in the North.

It is not a question of education or artistic skills, it is just what is it that can be regarded as culture (apart from identity and  OO parades) from the ethnic group that claims to be British that distiguishes them from Gaels.

As far as I can see, whatever artistically merited cultural expression comes out of Protestant/Unionist/British Identified born in Northern Ireland, doesn't identify itself with Unionist/Orange/Loyalist tradition. For the most part it just ends up being part of and sometimes integral part of Irish culture.

Again it all boils down to what you see as culture.

Interesting that you refer "what it is that can be regarded as culture from the ethnic group that claims to be British that distinguishes them from Gaels". Surely its actually the onus of those who look to Gaelic cultural seperatism to show how Gaelic culture is different from that of the rest of the British Isles/these islands. You seem to be conflating everything associated with the island of Ireland as 'Gaelic'. (Not sure if I've been terribly clear on this, can attempt to explain further if needs be)

Good reference above to Colin Bateman. He, for example, doesn't reject his identity as a member of the Protestant/unionist community - his work is distinctively Northern Irish, and more specifically distinctively a product of someone from the Protestant lower middle class in North Down.

[Aerlik]

Do people think that a dialect can be cultural?
For example, in america is there a jewish culture, and does it include the particular dialect they use?

First question...not sure about that.  "Donegal Irish" the main medium in Ulster (the proper Ulster that is) is different to Connemara Irish or Munster Irish, more so in words than syntax.  But it is still part of the wider cultural entity that is the language.

Second part...here's where many people imo go wrong.  They associate a religion as being a culture.  Well, as I wrote before, the Catholics of Malta and the Phillipines, Peru and Ireland, share one religion but their individual cultures stemming from their indigenous customs have helped to shape that religion in those countries.  Judaism is a religion not a culture, therefore cries of Racism are very often wrong, when in fact the correct term is Sectarianism.  The Jews of Eastern Europe share Judaism with the inhabitants of Israel, but have their own take on things.  So too, do the Jews in America and certainly in Australia.   It is well documented that one of the biggest problems Jews of Eastern Europe and Ethiopia have when they emmigrate to Israel is the cultural traditions and differences.

I have Greek friends and we often discuss the differences in Australian Greek culture and that of Greece.  They may be Orthodox by faith but not by culture, as the Australian traditions overtaken.  Same for Catholicism.  I received first communion when I was 7 and was confirmed at 11.  Australian Catholics do it differently.  My Maltese neighbour was married at 14 here in Australia, and when I expressed surprise, she said it was Maltese tradition/culture to do so.

Re. the "Northern Irish" identity...well I don't feel it one bit.  Must be a Unionist/Loyaslit thing as I feel as Irish as any Dubliner, Cork person or Galwegian.  Siege Mentality rather than identity would be a more apt description.

[Main Street]

You are wrong. "Northern Irish" is an identity.

Wrong about what?
I wrote it is not a prime identity.

I feel Northern Irish as my prime identiy, with the Irish and Britis elements increasingly irrelevant to me as time goes by

Okay so, but it's still not the prime identity amongst people born in NI.

1.British 2.Irish 3.Northern Irish

Because you and others may not agree with it or recognise it doesn't mean that it's not there

Obviously I have recognised it as an identity so it follows that at least I think it is there.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that Colin Bateman's work isn't distinctly Northern Irish, when he uses humour that many ROI citizens may feel totally alien to them?

Don't know the man's work so I couldn't possibly be suggesting anything.
If he is a comedian, the sign of a good one is one that people can relate to no matter where they come from.
Humour is humour.
Regional variations are a common enough phenomenon. Sometimes they don't export well.
(See some threads started by O'Neill)

Or the late James Young for that matter? Of course there is an overlap in Northern Ireland with wider Irish culture, but there is a distinct element which cannot be ignored or denied. There is also an overlap with British culture in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. I will concede that the some of the wider "Irish" culture has a more universal appeal, which is obvious in the success of Riverdance or Roddy Doyle or Maeve Binchy abroad. However, having read some of Roddy Doyle's books I would say that they could have been set in Liverpool or Glasgow and not needed to have been changed too much

.

In general, many aspects of culture are universal in appeal and translates well. That is the nature of things. Kurosawa's masterpieces are translated from Shakespeare's work.

I think you should do a good bit more research into culture on the Island
I would consider it to be a nonsense arrogant opinion to regard the examples I gave as "overlap".
Sara Makem or Tommy Makem  or Harp music  -  an overlap from Northern Ireland into Irish culture?  

The troubles have shaped Northern Ireland in a way that the Republic has not been affected by. Sad but true.

True enough,  but your troubles are far from over.

[nifan]

Second part...here's where many people imo go wrong.  They associate a religion as being a culture.

I dont associate a religion as a culture, but a group of people with common religion in an area can have a culture.
In NY there is a distinct culture (or was - gentrification is affecting that) such as round the lower east side.

[Evil Genius]

Re. the "Northern Irish" identity...well I don't feel it one bit.

Fair enough.

Must be a Unionist/Loyaslit thing as I feel as Irish as any Dubliner, Cork person or Galwegian.

Obviously the Northern Irish identity is overwhelmingly subscribed to by people from the Unionist/Loyalist community, but that was not always the case, and aspects of such identification have survived in other quarters even after 30+ years of The Troubles. The most obvious example is to be found with the NI football team. On another forum, someone commented on recently meeting the family of Sammy Clingan, whose background (I'm told) is West Belfast Nationalist. Yet they enthused about how much they enjoyed his playing for NI and were looking forward to travelling to Glasgow for the next NI match. Or the delighted scorer of the winner the last time NI played ROI was Lurgan's finest, Danny Griffin. Danny has never hidden his pride at representing NI, in stark contrast to a brother of his who famously once wrote a Fearonesque letter to a local paper, excoriating the whole football set-up in the "Six Counties"! Another sporting example was Barry McGuigan, who was as much a typically "Norn Iron" boxing hero as e.g. Rinty Monaghan or Wayne McCullough, despite his background Of course, none of this precludes those such as Griffin, Clingan and McGuigan also having very strong identification with more typically Irish/Gaelic cultural expressions, but these things are rarely entirely homogeneous; rather, there are frequent overlaps.

Siege Mentality rather than identity would be a more apt description.

I think you'll find that such a Mentality invariably follows the Siege, not the other way round. Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege...

[theskull1]

I think you'll find that such a Mentality invariably follows the Siege, not the other way round. Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege...

There was me thinking it has been  . Only problem now is to get people here to stop celebrating the feckin things cause it only keeps stirring the hatred between the two communities. Theres ways of remembering the past which is not triumphalist in nature but unfortunately there are too many on both sides who want to rub it in up here and keep the divisions which exist which shows a real lack of confidence IMO. I'd be unsure if some nationalists would consider this culture (I would hope not) but the republican bands up here do my head in and hoiw any dignified itelligent republican could enjoy days of rememberance when these kick the pope bands in all but uniform stomp up the street past them is beyond me. They are simply mirroring the behaviour of the other tribe of monkeys. I would have thought that republicanism would have convinced people by now that they need to move away from that type of sentiment at commemorations and bring some dignity and respect to those who they wish to remember. Both communities need to eveolve a bit before the gloves come down.

[Main Street]

Again it all boils down to what you see as culture.

Interesting that you refer "what it is that can be regarded as culture from the ethnic group that claims to be British that distinguishes them from Gaels". Surely its actually the onus of those who look to Gaelic cultural seperatism to show how Gaelic culture is different from that of the rest of the British Isles/these islands. You seem to be conflating everything associated with the island of Ireland as 'Gaelic'. (Not sure if I've been terribly clear on this, can attempt to explain further if needs be)

I am talking in cultural terms and when say I say distinguish, it does not mean separate or superior,  it means characteristics of culture that stand out.
I don't engage in talks of cultural separatism.  Appreciation of other cultures cuts right through negative divisive sentiments such as prejudice, superiority etc.
It is not culture what separates people.

The characteristics which distinguish Irish Gaelic culture from other cultures are clear enough and obvious.

It would appear there is an understanding amongst those who subscribe primarily to a Northern Ireland identity, that if there is an expression of  Gaelic culture in NI, it is primarily an expression of NI culture and if it just happens to "overlap" with southern Gaelic Culture then so be it, that's a side effect.
A nice theory

You seem to be conflating everything associated with the island of Ireland as 'Gaelic'

Everything is big word.
Gaelic culture  is Gaelic culture, existed centuries before there was a border.
In reference to the cultural expressions in NI,  no I don't see that as reflecting Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture. 
Northern Irish is much closer to the mark.
Apart from regional variations I see that as a shared culture.

Claim Louis back from the Brits.

[Aerlik]

Second part...here's where many people imo go wrong.  They associate a religion as being a culture.

I dont associate a religion as a culture, but a group of people with common religion in an area can have a culture.
In NY there is a distinct culture (or was - gentrification is affecting that) such as round the lower east side.

OK, I(n)FAN, I interpreted your original question as implying that religion was culture, and understand you reply. But the Jewish population of that area of NY (I have never been to anywhere in the Americas) are no doubt influenced by one particular cultural take on the Jewish faith, be it Poland, Russia, Ukraine or wherever.   which is my point.  My Irish Catholic upbringing is "culturally" different to my Maltese, Italian, or even Chilean neighbours, yet we worship in the same church.