Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture

[nifan]

The term [culture] was first used in this way by the pioneer English Anthropologist Edward B. Tylor in his book, Primitive Culture, published in 1871.  Tylor said that culture is "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."

[An Fear Rua]

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[Main Street]

The term [culture] was first used in this way by the pioneer English Anthropologist Edward B. Tylor in his book, Primitive Culture, published in 1871.  Tylor said that culture is "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."

The quote from Tyler is
"Culture, or civilization taken in its broad, ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society"

One could even say the KKK are culture personified and find some line somewhere from Primitive Culture to give that idea some validity.
Or that culture is every possible expression of human kind at every given time.

But fortunatly Tyler subscribed to the theory of survivals and went on his book to explain that
as we evolve, as society evolves, some customs are still practiced that are not necessary, like outworn or useless baggage.

Someone somewhere could use that line to decry a load of stuff, couldn't they?

Aye we covered the flight of the earls. We covered loads of irish history in fact. Whats your point here?

Just curious.

[nifan]

I agree that as" we evolve, as society evolves, some customs are still practiced that are not necessary, like outworn or useless baggage."
But i still believe that even the things that perhaps should be consigned to the dustbin can be classed as culture - even if it is useless. Traditional practices by a group of people are part of their culture, and that is certainly what orange marches for example are.

I dont believe that being part of a culture gives something legitimacy by the way. Slavery was a part of many differnet peoples cultures in the past, and was certainly wrong.

Can I ask where you stand on terms like "youth culture" for example as a description of the practices of a group.

As for the flight of the earls etc in history - as i say we covered the history of ireland from the earliest points, and covered all the major events such as this. Covered about 1/3rd my gcse history - the other components being history of medicine and germany from pre ww1 to the end of ww2.

[Rossfan]

How many people make the journey to Croagh Patrick each year? I've been on bigger sponsored walks.

Thousands do "the Reek" on the last Sunday in July every year ya haythen.

[Yes I Would]

Those statistics really show how bigoted and backward they are!!!

[lynchbhoy]

previously this 'culture' included
marching around nationalist areas, marching to disrupt local nationalists carrying out everyday life, assisting the army/ruc
in breaking glass bottles and 'arranging' it around GAA pitches between midnight and 4am, assisted intimidation of nationalists,
attempting to create a new 'language (alstar skats - which is a the witterings of some uneducated orange yokel with a
bad accent), assisted oppression of nationalists, refusing to share power, refusing to negotiate with nationalists,
triumphalism, lambeg drums, being part of murder gangs along with ruc and brit army /sas members, organised assasinations
of nationalists, king billy, closet homosexuals and kincora-esque cover-ups, racism, homophobia, kids names
straight out of the bible, never crossing the border to go south (until the south had money), about three songs in their
musical repetoire (the sash has a great tune though), reading porno mags and weightlifting,shirtlifting, c company
and drug running, assisting top ruc man to peddle drugs and run largest vice ring in northwest europe,

and seems like these are thankfully being abandoned slowly - with the marching/bonfire stuff being the last blockade towards them joining normal society. Maybe there are a few aspects of orange/unionist 'culture' that can be brought with them, but I am at a loss to see or know what these might be ?

[nifan]

quite a rant lynchboy, and seemingly your view of all unionists.

[MW]

previously this 'culture' included
marching around nationalist areas, marching to disrupt local nationalists carrying out everyday life, assisting the army/ruc
in breaking glass bottles and 'arranging' it around GAA pitches between midnight and 4am, assisted intimidation of nationalists,
attempting to create a new 'language (alstar skats - which is a the witterings of some uneducated orange yokel with a
bad accent), assisted oppression of nationalists, refusing to share power, refusing to negotiate with nationalists,
triumphalism, lambeg drums, being part of murder gangs along with ruc and brit army /sas members, organised assasinations
of nationalists, king billy, closet homosexuals and kincora-esque cover-ups, racism, homophobia, kids names
straight out of the bible, never crossing the border to go south (until the south had money), about three songs in their
musical repetoire (the sash has a great tune though), reading porno mags and weightlifting,shirtlifting, c company
and drug running, assisting top ruc man to peddle drugs and run largest vice ring in northwest europe,

and seems like these are thankfully being abandoned slowly - with the marching/bonfire stuff being the last blockade towards them joining normal society. Maybe there are a few aspects of orange/unionist 'culture' that can be brought with them, but I am at a loss to see or know what these might be ?

Thank you. I will be sure to quote this when someone brings up 'bigotry' in future

It's a classic. Vile, utterly vile and dripping with prejudice and indeed naked hatred. But a classic of its kind and the sort of thing people should be reminded exists.

[MW]

Leaving aside lynchbhoy's bile now.

The question isn't a good one because of its construction. There's no 'unionist culture' any more than there is 'nationalist culture'. there is however Ulster Protestant or Ulster-British culture as there is Irish Catholic culture or Irish Gaelic culture.

And yes, to refer back to Orior, some of this means tapping into the mainstream of British culture (unsurprising given the identification with Britishness and the background of the community in a fusion mainly of people of Scottish and English ethnicity). Shakespeare, Remembrance, Burns, etc. Other parts of it are more unique to the 'Ulster-British' community. I wonder do many of the posters on here exclude the works of say Louis MacNiece or CS Lewis? Do scientific achievements of a members of a community count as part of its culture? Think of Lord Kelvin or Frank Pantridge. Then there's modern music and 'pop culture'. Are the Charlatans part of modern Irish culture. Think of Snow Patrol. Then there's more 'traditional' music, which believe it or not also exists outside of the Catholic/nationalist community.

Identification with a 'diaspora' and it's achievements? Part of 'Irish Catholic' culture, perhaps. As it is with for example Armenian culture. Look at the identification with those of Scots-Irish origin, for example with the American Declaration of Independence and the Revoluationary War.

Interesting that in previous posts Catholic religiosity has been seen as part of a cultural milieu. Surely then the same has to be conceded for Protestant religiosity, in its various kinds? Ulster Presbyterianism, in its many experiences and forms (good and bad) must feature - for example the narrative of 'dissent' or 'nonconformism'. And the non-'ascendancy' part of Irish Anglicanism. Not to mention the various small denominations and sects down to little gospel halls.

There's history and its inter-meshing with mythology. The First World War and the idea of sacrifice; the Williamite wars especially the Siege of Derry; and many more are part of an Ulster Protestant narrative just as there is an Irish Catholic narrative.

All depends on what you want to include in the rather vague label 'culture'. It strikes me that some want to set the parameters in terms of how they can best denigrate the other community, which is very sad.

[lynchbhoy]

 
thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened 

anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!

[updown9194]

Leaving aside lynchbhoy's bile now.

The question isn't a good one because of its construction. There's no 'unionist culture' any more than there is 'nationalist culture'. there is however Ulster Protestant or Ulster-British culture as there is Irish Catholic culture or Irish Gaelic culture.

And yes, to refer back to Orior, some of this means tapping into the mainstream of British culture (unsurprising given the identification with Britishness and the background of the community in a fusion mainly of people of Scottish and English ethnicity). Shakespeare, Remembrance, Burns, etc. Other parts of it are more unique to the 'Ulster-British' community. I wonder do many of the posters on here exclude the works of say Louis MacNiece or CS Lewis? Do scientific achievements of a members of a community count as part of its culture? Think of Lord Kelvin or Frank Pantridge. Then there's modern music and 'pop culture'. Are the Charlatans part of modern Irish culture. Think of Snow Patrol. Then there's more 'traditional' music, which believe it or not also exists outside of the Catholic/nationalist community.

Identification with a 'diaspora' and it's achievements? Part of 'Irish Catholic' culture, perhaps. As it is with for example Armenian culture. Look at the identification with those of Scots-Irish origin, for example with the American Declaration of Independence and the Revoluationary War.

Interesting that in previous posts Catholic religiosity has been seen as part of a cultural milieu. Surely then the same has to be conceded for Protestant religiosity, in its various kinds? Ulster Presbyterianism, in its many experiences and forms (good and bad) must feature - for example the narrative of 'dissent' or 'nonconformism'. And the non-'ascendancy' part of Irish Anglicanism. Not to mention the various small denominations and sects down to little gospel halls.

There's history and its inter-meshing with mythology. The First World War and the idea of sacrifice; the Williamite wars especially the Siege of Derry; and many more are part of an Ulster Protestant narrative just as there is an Irish Catholic narrative.

All depends on what you want to include in the rather vague label 'culture'. It strikes me that some want to set the parameters in terms of how they can best denigrate the other community, which is very sad.

The difference is that one was almost deliberately constructed so as to be artificial, perhaps none so more elucidated by a look at a map. Changing the names of things doesn't really constitute a major difference. I fondly recall ulster-scots dancing being at the festival once. See: Ulster-Scots, etc.

[nifan]

thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened 

anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!

That the tings in your list happened is one thing.
That, lets say "shirtlifting" (classy term by the way) is part of unionist culture is baffling. The fact that your list states your opinion on the whole group is quite interesting, and backs up some of the rhetoric youve come out with in the past.

[MW]

thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened 

anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!

That the tings in your list happened is one thing.
That, lets say "shirtlifting" (classy term by the way) is part of unionist culture is baffling.

And he also lists "homophobia". Go figure

The fact that your list states your opinion on the whole group is quite interesting, and backs up some of the rhetoric youve come out with in the past.

Sets out his virulent bigotry in pretty stark terms, indeed.

[MW]

The difference is that one was almost deliberately constructed so as to be artificial, perhaps none so more elucidated by a look at a map.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand this sentence. Can you explain?

Changing the names of things doesn't really constitute a major difference.

I don't really understand what you mean by this comment either.

I fondly recall ulster-scots dancing being at the festival once.

I don't know whether Scottish dancing evolved into particular forms in Ulster. If it didn't, your issue seems to be mainly with the label applied.bv

See: Ulster-Scots, etc.

there's been a lot said about Ulster Scots on this thread and indeed derision is the default reaction here. But I'd ask you and other to look past the faults of some of those involved in its promotion in Northern Ireland, and take a look at the historical context of Scots.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm

http://www.scotslanguage.com/

http://www.rampantscotland.com/gaelic.htm

http://www.lallans.co.uk/