Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture

[nifan]

I don't know what you are getting at Nifan with chopping up my post..
When I posted, I was not answering you.
I was just posting an opinion about culture
I hadn't read your post before replying.

Im getting at nothing - I didnt chop it up - i posted one point you made, and asked a question on it.

I also posted what i felt was one reasonable definition of culture that I think "Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist" communities could purport to have.

Do you not think think that examples such as parades, bonfires and flute and pipe bands can count as culture?

[Solomon Kane]

Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century? From what I can see it is mostly Latte, Eastenders, Big Brother, Coldplay, getting pissed, sticking stupid accessories on to small hatchbacks etc etc. Much the same as the rest of western Europe with small variations. There are certain things unique to Irish people both orange and green but to me Dublin and Belfast aren't that different from most big Eiropean cities I have been in. Apart from the shit weather and above average proportion of ropey looking women.

[pintsofguinness]

Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century? From what I can see it is mostly Latte, Eastenders, Big Brother, Coldplay, getting pissed, sticking stupid accessories on to small hatchbacks etc etc. Much the same as the rest of western Europe with small variations. There are certain things unique to Irish people both orange and green but to me Dublin and Belfast aren't that different from most big Eiropean cities I have been in. Apart from the shit weather and above average proportion of ropey looking women.

Dance, Music and Sport.  - Same as it's been for quite a while now!

[Rossfan]

Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century?

Traditional Music ;Gaelic Games: Irish language ; climbing Croagh Patrick and  the one that really marks out Irish Culture -bonfires on the 23 rd of June - not 11th July or Halloween. 

[nifan]

Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century?

Is this a serious question? Youd surely have to concede gaelic etc as culture.

[Main Street]

I'm getting at nothing - I didnt chop it up - i posted one point you made, and asked a question on it.

I also posted what i felt was one reasonable definition of culture that I think "Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist" communities could purport to have.

Do you not think think that examples such as parades, bonfires and flute and pipe bands can count as culture?

I did not read one definition of culture that you wrote, could you repeat it please?

As I said or would have said to your example, they are not very deep, just scratching on the surface of the hundreds of years that go into culture.
Hardly more relevant to culture than wren boys, marble season or Bodenstown marches. Aspects of a tradition, expression or confirmation of a political belief.

AFAIU there is some aspiration or affirmation to be British and some people are trying to say that the varied expression of that is culture.

Culture is the finest expression of our existence as seen in Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports amongst many things.
For example,  Fiddle music is a culture,  Clare, Sligo, Donegal all have their distinct recognisable  styles, I have yet to come across a Unionist style of playing.

[slow corner back]

There is a unionist/orange style of flute playing, then again there is also an orange style of shouting f*ck the pope which they also try to pass off as culture.

[nifan]

Main street.

As i said one of several definitions i came across.

the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group

As for your point that they elements i mentioned are "just scratching on the surface of the hundreds of years that go into culture". I am actually unsure what to make of that - are you saying that culture requires hundreds of years to become such?

AFAIU there is some aspiration or affirmation to be British and some people are trying to say that the varied expression of that is culture.

Is the fact that the peoples we are talking about have that aspiration make any less of their culture, or reason for their culture, than the aspiration of those irish people which has helped shape their culture over a long period of time.
The fact is that the history and hopes of the people have the biggest influence on their culture.

[Main Street]

are you saying that culture requires hundreds of years to become such?

No

Is the fact that the peoples we are talking about have that aspiration make any less of their culture, or reason for their culture, than the aspiration of those irish people which has helped shape their culture over a long period of time.

I don't understand that question.

The fact is that the history and hopes of the people have the biggest influence on their culture.

History could mean every event that has happened in the past

It's not just the historical event, like most things in life it is the response to events which defines character.
Culture is the expression. Culture is expressed in many different ways. In the Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports etc.
Like that 9 part program (on tonight on the BBC NI) called Blas Ceoil,  celebrating the 400th anniversary of the Flight of the Earls.
That is a historical event which changed the course of Irish history to its core  but the culture of its celebration is expressed in the form of wonderfull music from compositons dated from that time, performed to the highest standards.
 
Are you not mixing up the questions of Orange Order parades and Unionists culture?
I have written about my opinions.
With Unionists as an ethnic group, if you talk about evidence of Cultural expression, what I want to see something that distinguishes that ethnic group, something that I can say  - yes that is Unionist culture. I don't see it. I see an ethnic group that wants to remain British, I do not see any culture, as I understand culture to be, around that.


If you talk about the Orange Order tradition of marches and parades as an expression of Unionist culture then fine. I don't rate it as high you do to classify it as culture.
As cultural expressions go, it penetrates little beyond its history of intolerance, bigotry, sectarianism and arrogance.
And that just faced with persistent public abhorrence and ridicule, it has cleaned up a good deal of its act to have a jovial lick of paint.

I am entitled to my opinion when I say it doesn't scratch the surface of what is culture, that is my considered opinion on the matter.

[magickingdom]

Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century? From what I can see it is mostly Latte, Eastenders, Big Brother, Coldplay, getting pissed, sticking stupid accessories on to small hatchbacks etc etc. Much the same as the rest of western Europe with small variations. There are certain things unique to Irish people both orange and green but to me Dublin and Belfast aren't that different from most big Eiropean cities I have been in. Apart from the shit weather and above average proportion of ropey looking women.

the only thing i take issue with you there is the ropey women bit, i think the place is full of babes. when i was in my 20's we were all ugly. as for irish culture it exists but there are very few practicing it if you know what i mean

[nifan]

That is a historical event which changed the course of Irish history to its core  but the culture of its celebration is expressed in the form of wonderfull music from compositons dated from that time, performed to the highest standards.

If the music wasnt wonderful would it not still be culture?

Are you not mixing up the questions of Orange Order parades and Unionists culture?

No, this thread is "Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture" so im pretty sure parades would come under that banner.

The fact that you dont rate it seems to be your criteria for not counting it as culture. I think that it is culture - good or bad. Distaste for something doesnt make something "not culture" in my opinion.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, im just wondering what forms your opinion. Why sport is culture but parades arent for example. I really dont feel like youve explained what makes culture, but fair enough.

[Fishbat]

why dont the 95% do something about it then??

What do you suggest?

I would suggest that you look at forming a committee/public forum/group or similar to investigate the legal precedent if any to apply to have these stopped as they are unwelcome, and if that fails move to the next stage...Maybe ask your parents how their generation went about raising their concerns....

Aye but it shouldn't be up to the locals to do this - its beyond time for the majority of protestants to tell these clowns to dry up and blow away.

It used to be traditional to burn folk at the stake, time for this stone age claptrappery to die out too.

Lets stir up, on an almost monthly basis through the summer, centuries of sectarian hatred and strife that the rest of Europe has long past put in the bin - its a real bad joke and its hard to believe theres so many in on it......why should all of us be tarred and have to live through that shite to keep a shower of bitter old bastards in bowlers hats happy,

Can any unionists out there tell us the reasoning behind this aul annual poking of the fire that most of ye give tacit support to?

Why do so many go and stand round bonfires - the majority of whom can't even spell Boyne Valley - then show the world the poison the next day with the "No Surrender" tripe from Edenderry, Who exactly is asking for your surrrender?

[Yes I Would]

Bornfires on the 11th July with Irish flag aloft or with effigys of dead catholic children burning!! Flying union jack and UDA flags on every lampost
Marching in areas where they are not welcome, to music that nobody really likes,
This has been passed off as culture for years by many unionist politicians which is bullshit, but really its a clear manifestation of sectarian hatred and prejudice.

There is a legitimate culture of literature, music and arts in the province but unfortunately there are few who are aware of it or do not basically give a shite about it as its non political and non sectarian!!

I also agree that in modern Ireland there is a danger that some areas of our heritage and traditions may be lost, but guess this is happening across Europe as society has changed so rapidly over past 20 years.

[Solomon Kane]

Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century?

Traditional Music ;Gaelic Games: Irish language ; climbing Croagh Patrick and  the one that really marks out Irish Culture -bonfires on the 23 rd of June - not 11th July or Halloween. 

Since when was a language a culture? Is the French or German language a culture? How many people make the journey to Croagh Patrick each year? I've been on bigger sponsored walks.

[Solomon Kane]

as for irish culture it exists but there are very few practicing it if you know what i mean

Bang on the head there. The majority of us are more immersed in Anglo-American culture than we like to admit. I cannot think of one thing Irish/Northern Irish or whatever I can call my own. I have little interest in any sort of trad music (although I am starting to lean a bit towards American folk), no interest in any sport outside soccer and bar the news and reading the Belfast Telegraph I don't watch any locally produced TV or read any local newspapers. I have read a handful of local authors but 95% of what I have read is from America. I'm not saying I am right, or that anyone else is wrong but in reality I don't see much in the way of unique Irish culture of any sort around me.