Are the provincial Championships totally meaningless now?

[T Fearon]

Last year Sligo won Connaught, this year Wexford are in the Leinster Final, while the Ulster Final has a slim chance of featuring two Division three sides, namely Down and Fermanagh, which is akin in soccer terms to this year's FA Cup Final Cardiff against Portsmouth.

Surely in the good old days when teams only got one bite of the cherry these scenarios would never have panned out?

[AZOffaly]

Depends on your perspective. I'd imagine for the more successful, or teams with higher expectations, like Kerry, Galway, Mayo, Armagh, Tyrone, Dublin etc, they are seen as a mere stepping stone on the way to Croke Park in September.

However, for the vast majority of us, the provincial titles are a realistic target at the start of the year, but one that would bring immense satisfaction. I'm sure Offaly, Westmeath, Laois, Cork, Roscommon, Wexford, Meath, Fermanagh, Donegal etc etc etc would love to be Connacht/Leinster/Munster/Ulster champions.

[Feckitt]

If you scrap the provincial championships and go for a Champions league system then every year you will have 1 winner and 31 losers.

Think of Sligo last year, or Laois, Westmeath and Armagh in recent years breaking the hoodoo of provincial success.  This year it could be Fermanagh and Wexford.  Teams need to be able to aim for something.  I don't think anyone in Down or Fermanagh thinks they will win the ALL Ireland, but it would be a great year if they win Ulster.  For Fermanagh it's already a great year. 

[Zulu]

While I agree that for some teams winning a provincial title would be great, I don't think that that is reason enough to keep them. The provincial championships are now fairly tame and are of little value to the best teams, worse again the provincial championships ensure an unbalanced and unfair AI championship. If you want to retain the provincial championships you could scrap the pre-season competitions and the league final and instead play the provincial championships as stand alone competitions.

[AZOffaly]

I agree to a certain extent Zulu, but the Provincial Championships also measure progress for most teams. For example, winning a championship match is progress for some, qualifying for a Leinster final is progress for others, and winning a Leinster title is tangible reward and recognition of a level of progress.

An all or nothing All Ireland Championship would not give the same tangible sense of achievement, or encouragement, in my opinion.

[Bensars]

Well Tony you should know better than most.  6 ulster titles since 1999 and only one All Ireland.

[Red Army]

T Fearon. How could Down be referred to as Portsmouth or Cardiff. I think you need a history lesson. Down would be more a kin to the Mighty Manchester United. 5 All Ireland titles would suggest that to Armaghs 1 and tyrones 2.

[Lazer]

Considering that everyone from the provincial except the finalists go through to the first round of the qualifiers, its makes them even more meaningless.
The Back door system is nothing more than a money making attempt by the GAA, and it should go back to old way.

In Ulster, you could now win 2 matches and still be at the same level as the team you knocked out in the premlininary round.

[heineken_on_tap]

I'd say for any of the top teams the provincial championship does not mean as much as it did. Kerry would prefer to be All Ireland champions than Muster champions and then lose the semi final. Likewise in 2001 Ros were Connaugh champions but Galway went on to win the AI. It meant alot to Ros that year but not too many in Galway lost sleep over not been Connaugh champions at the end of the year.

However there are only 6 or 7 counties with any chance of winning the AI so for all other teams a Provincial title will always be a big deal. 

[Bensars]

Undoubtedly it was a money making exercise under the guise of allowing players who trained all year the chance of a second game. under the old back door system it provided 28 extra games which was a massive financial windfall ( and still continues to be the case ).

The reality is it will never go back to the way it was. Too much revenue loss. Its a business.


On a side note you have to laugh at fearon trying to wind up his more successful neighbours

[Zulu]

The Back door system is nothing more than a money making attempt by the GAA, and it should go back to old way.

The one thing we should never do is go back to the old system, anything is better than that for a multitude of reasons.

I agree to a certain extent Zulu, but the Provincial Championships also measure progress for most teams. For example, winning a championship match is progress for some, qualifying for a Leinster final is progress for others, and winning a Leinster title is tangible reward and recognition of a level of progress.

An all or nothing All Ireland Championship would not give the same tangible sense of achievement, or encouragement, in my opinion.

That's a fair point AZ but what you're basically saying is that we should retain the provincial system for the, maybe 6 teams that can win a provincial title but not the AI. Everyone else can still aim for and achieve their goals in any other system. The gross inequality inherent in the current sytem is so unfair and (often) boring that we must scrap the provincial system sooner rather than later IMO.

[Maguire01]

That's a fair point AZ but what you're basically saying is that we should retain the provincial system for the, maybe 6 teams that can win a provincial title but not the AI. Everyone else can still aim for and achieve their goals in any other system. The gross inequality inherent in the current sytem is so unfair and (often) boring that we must scrap the provincial system sooner rather than later IMO.

At least 6 teams in Ulster alone are capable of winning the provincial final over a 10-15 year period. The Ulster Championship will also mean a lot more to Armagh and Tyrone as their AI success ages. There's plenty of value in the provincial system yet. And as for aiming for goals in another system, to most people, goals = silverware.  There are no prises for winning 3 games in an open draw, whereas in the current system, that could land you the provincial title.

As for being a crowd puller, well the open draw would certainly hit that hard.  If Tyrone drew Cork, for example, in the early stages of an open draw, you wouldn't see much of a travelling support.  You'd also lose the historic rivalries.

[AZOffaly]

I think I'd be more along the lines of saying retain the provincial systems to give the vast majority of teams a realistic, tangible,  target to aim for. The All Ireland hopefuls can use it as a stepping stone, or whatever way they like.

As an example, in my opinion the following teams in Leinster could realistically aim and hope for a Leinster title, as a tangible progression goal towards one day joining, or re-joining, the very top table.

Offaly, Kildare, Louth, Westmeath, Laois, Meath, Wexford.

Longford, Wicklow, Carlow would love to get to a provincial final (rather than qualifiy out of a 'group' or reach round 3 of an open draw system). Of course it's possible these teams are actually aiming higher than that, but still within Leinster.

Dublin see it as a stepping stone to bigger things, no doubt.


In Munster, I'm sure Waterford and Clare would love to get to a Munster final, whereas Tipp, Limerick and to a lesser extent Cork, would love to win one.

In Connacht, Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon would give a lot for a(nother) Connacht title.

In Ulster, I'm sure the likes of Derry, Donegal, Cavan, Down, Monaghan, Antrim, Fermanagh would absolutely love to win the Anglo Celt, whereas Armagh and Tyrone would like it, but only as a means to an end.

In my opinion, the provincial system provides a huge prize, that's within a level of realism, for all bar the likes of Kerry, Armagh, Tyrone, Galway, Mayo and Dublin. That's enough to make it worthwhile in my opinion.

[AZOffaly]

I suppose it's the converse of the hurling situation. In hurling Munster would be loathe to do away with the 'provincial system' as it would be the end of the Munster Hurling Championship, as a serious competition.

In Football, the Connacht, Leinster and Ulster championships are well contested, whereas Munster is still largely a 2 horse race, with the rest, apart from perhaps Limerick, a long way behind.

[thewobbler]

No harm to Fearon, but his point doesn't stand up.

In the decade directly before the qualifier system was introduced, Clare, Roscommon, Donegal, Cavan, Kildare and Leitrim all won their only Provincial Championships in recent memory. The introduction of the back door hasn't been responsible for adding surprise winners or surprise finalists.

The single biggest reason for keeping the Provincial Championships is simple; crowds. There were 17k+ at Omagh and Newry for Down vs Tyrone. Put any two Ulster teams (aside from Antrim) in a Provinical game, and you'll always get a healthy crowd.

In an open draw, realistically how big a crowd would Down vs Clare or Donegal vs Wicklow generate?