11-Plus Proposal

[saffron sam2]

Initially it was supposed to be that 40% of primary school students were awarded grammar school places. Now, with primary school numbers falling, but the number of grammar school places remaining the same, up to 60% of primary school students now get grammar places. Hence the IQ argument is flawed. If it was a simple IQ test, then any student with an IQ in the top 40% should be guaranteed a place and no-one else.

My opinion would be that a school should reflect its community, for example, why should people be bussed in from Crossmaglen, Lurgan etc. to grammar schools in Newry while people living opposite the front gate may be excluded?

[FermGael]

The 11 plus.  In my opinion a complete and utter waste. Branding a child a failure at 11, only in Northern Ireland.

The big question is what happens to all those children who do not do the eleven plus but are taught in a class where pupils are?
Truth be told, most come into secondary school with lower than average reading, writing and maths levels because primary school teachers have other priorities.  And you cannot blame them, because eleven plus results is what they will be judged on each year.
So already at 11 you have a sizeable minority who have been turned away from education and branded.
Then you have the pupils who fail.  A failure at 11.

The question should be as to why the DUP are making noises about keeping the eleven plus.  The one section of the community that is has been shown too completely fail is the protestant working classes, the mainstay of the DUP's support.
If you look at the standard of secondary education on religious lines, catholic secondary schools out perform protestant secondary schools from similar working class populations.  

The other very simple reason as to why there is so much support for keeping the eleven plus in the grammar schools is the fear that some of their teachers would have of teaching pupils of lower ability.

[delboy]

The other very simple reason as to why there is so much support for keeping the eleven plus in the grammar schools is the fear that some of their teachers would have of teaching pupils of lower ability.

The first paragraph is surely an argument for not only abolishing academic selection but also faith maintained schools otherwise it isn't a level playing field?? School should be about educating children not indoctrinating them into one creed or another.

[milltown row]

how many people on the site have failed their 11+?

and how many people have felt they were a failure because of it?

its a lot of nonsense. less and less people are not taking the exam, and the pressure that parents put on their kids (who do the exam) to pass an exam is unreal. that pressure then follows them right through school were they have to work far harder than the rest just to stay in touch.
entry level exams need to be in place. I'm all for changing the year till about 13/14 but this idea of kids running around feeling like a failure in balls. at a 11 years of age he's/shes more interested in anything other than exams and their future. it's the over demanding parents who want to keep up with the Jones.

in England they have the Comprehensive schooling going for years, stopped the 11+ years ago, is that what we want? kids in secondary schools need to be in smaller classes, they'll learn more. as for the ones with learning disabilities they should be catered for at specialised schools who have teachers with proper training for this

getting kids tutored is the thing they are all doing, (and long may it continue, my missus makes a few pound at it) but she knows within 1 or 2 sessions whether they will make the grade, she tells the parents straight off. parents never listen and ask for more teaching, brilliant

[pintsofguinness]

its a lot of nonsense. less and less people are not taking the exam, and the pressure that parents put on their kids (who do the exam) to pass an exam is unreal.

And you think the children aren't bothered when they fail?

[milltown row]

so it's your abidding memory?

all i'm saying is this we dont want to go down the Comprehensive schooling we have in England. at 11 i was more bother when the Johnnies beat us in a under12 final at Casement.
did it stop me getting a good job after i failed my 11 plus? no. did i feel a failure? no.  was i bothered? yeah but at the time that was my level. all kids develop at different stages. and if there was an exam at 13/14 were you can transfer to another school (though i think ya can do that) then thats what kids should do who are unlucky on the day not to pass.

[pintsofguinness]

I passed mine.

You mighten have been bothered but a lot of children do be bothered.  You said yourself kids develop at different stages so why test them at 11? What's the point?

English schooling may not be perfect but I don't think a lot of the faults are necessarily down to the lack of a 11+

[milltown row]

its not the best schooling. N.Ireland has consistently out scored the schools in the rest of Britain and beyond, yes there may be a gap between those passing at GCSE levels than ones not but thats not the fault of the 11 plus.

my thinking would be for the government to reduce the class sizes thus giving the students more attention and the teachers less hassle and added time for preparing good lessons were the kids can have achieveable goals and targets, the curriculum is far too taxing for our under achievers. if they were to stick to the main subjects then we could bring that gap closer.

[pintsofguinness]

its not the best schooling. N.Ireland has consistently out scored the schools in the rest of Britain and beyond, yes there may be a gap between those passing at GCSE levels than ones not but thats not the fault of the 11 plus.

the North out scoring Britain does not mean the 11+ is the way to go.

my thinking would be for the government to reduce the class sizes thus giving the students more attention and the teachers less hassle and added time for preparing good lessons were the kids can have achieveable goals and targets, the curriculum is far too taxing for our under achievers. if they were to stick to the main subjects then we could bring that gap closer.

And all that can be done under the one roof, there's no need for tests at 11 to determine the apparent smart kids.

[ardmhachaabu]

I honestly believe that selection is the only way to go as long as kids can opt out of it and go for something vocational if they so choose

[pintsofguinness]

I honestly believe that selection is the only way to go as long as kids can opt out of it and go for something vocational if they so choose

But those who fail a test couldn't go down the academic route?
You do realise that right there you are saying academic route - success, vocational - failure?

[milltown row]

Sorry i was continuing on from your post, englands method (like most things) is not great because they dropped the 11+, IMO

Yes it can be done under the one roof but there is no room in these schools, specialist teaching could help bring up the standard so that everyone is achieving.

getting the right formula is difficult, but i cant see where it has made our education bad (the 11+ that is)

it's strange that most of the posters have passed the 11+ would be the ones who want it to go, if it were voted on, nationally, would it be scrapped or kept?

and why can they not go down the academic route? i didnt but went through a vocational route got the qualifications and now teach, it was not the direct route but very profitable. no failure.

[ardmhachaabu]

I honestly believe that selection is the only way to go as long as kids can opt out of it and go for something vocational if they so choose

But those who fail a test couldn't go down the academic route?
You do realise that right there you are saying academic route - success, vocational - failure?

Not at all pints.  I mean that kids should be given a choice in terms of what they want to do and what will best fit their needs. 

I know many adults who have went and done degrees part-time etc who didn't have as much as an O level when they left school.

By and large, a young person knows whether they want to bury their head in books or learn a trade.

[pintsofguinness]

Yes it can be done under the one roof but there is no room in these schools,

I don't buy that, a lot of high schools operate a system where top classes would be similar to grammar school classes and there is no reason why the kids in other classes couldnt be given more vocational options.  In high schools if you're not fit for the class you're in or you're developing and appear able for a higher class you're moved which makes sense to me and a much better system than one that depends on a on off test. 
As for a national vote - it would be interesting but I'd imagine it would stay - there's an awful lot of snobs and idiots out there who go on with shite like "my little tommy has to go to a grammar school"   

and why can they not go down the academic route? i didnt but went through a vocational route got the qualifications and now teach, it was not the direct route but very profitable. no failure.

And you weren't able to go down a direct route because you failed a test when you were 11! Doesnt make much sense.

Not at all pints.  I mean that kids should be given a choice in terms of what they want to do and what will best fit their needs.

It may not be intentional but a test for selection is saying one thing i.e. vocational is a failure. If I said to you I'll ask you a question and if you get it right you'll get this biscuit but if you get it wrong you get this other biscuit you'll automatically think/get the  impression the first biscuit is the best one!

I know many adults who have went and done degrees part-time etc who didn't have as much as an O level when they left school.

And most of them because they weren't given the chance when they were at  school.

[milltown row]

ok it's fair to say that Pints your in favour of dropping the exams thingy at 11, whats next? when the poor kids fail at 16 years of age then 18 and when they go to college fail to get anything there.

so you want the Comprehensive system? or have you come up with a plan