Rugby - David Knox has a right cut off Munster and Kidney

[AZOffaly]

Anyone read this? I heard an interview with him on Newstalk at lunchtime so I got the article from the indo. I must say I'm surprised. I think it's fairly obvious that Munster have evolved and are continuing to evolve the way they play the game. What will not change is they will try to play winning rugby. If that requires up the jumper stuff, then that's what you'll get. If it requires running rugby, with offloads, then they'll try that. If it requires O'Gara to kick the bejaysus out of every ball then they'll try that.

Munster are far from perfect, but I think this is either a) a cheap shot, or b) a frustrated cry by a coach who was in charge of the one of the best back lines of modern day rugby, who failed to land the big one.  What do our rugby afficianados think?

RELAND'S failure to evolve during the Eddie O'Sullivan era has been compounded by the IRFU choosing the wrong man to replace him it was claimed last night.

David Knox, the Australian who has been backs coach to Leinster for the last three seasons, yesterday revealed a litany of failings and mistakes that have bedevilled Irish rugby in recent years.

"It's a big mistake to choose Declan Kidney as the new coach," he said. "The Irish international team badly needed a foreign coach. After the Eddie O'Sullivan era, they wanted someone to test these guys, show them a new way to play.

"The Munster people think he [Kidney] is a messiah but I just don't understand that."

In a revealing, wide-ranging interview, Knox is fiercely critical of the rugby played by Munster. He acknowledges their successes in the Heineken Cup but maintains they have achieved glory at the expense of any style or flair.

"And when those players come to play at the very highest level, such as a World Cup, they come up short," he insists.

Rubbish

Who is he thinking of? None more so than Ronan O'Gara.

"I have been here for three years and I have never seen him create space for anybody. Yet over here he ranks with Dan Carter as the best fly-half in the world. I have never heard such rubbish."

What Knox calls Munster's limited, blinkered rugby is part of the reason for Ireland's players' inability to succeed on the world stage, he claims.

"Munster's record is fantastic but you can't tell me they play anything but 10-man rugby. Unfortunately, players can't just switch on style play when they get into the international arena.

"Munster get 30 points on the board by grinding away and when the other team is shot, they try and throw the ball around a bit. Then people say, what a great team. It's rubbish.

"If Doug Howlett had played for Leinster this season, he would have ended up scoring 30 tries. He's scored about three or four for Munster. He's seen as the greatest buy of the year but how often has he touched the ball? They have no idea how to use him."

Knox also admits he has been bewildered by what he called "the paranoid world" of Irish rugby during his stay in Dublin. He revealed that Eddie O'Sullivan never once contacted him to discuss any of the Irish international players with whom he was working, day in day out.

[AZOffaly]

This is a more expanded version of the same interview.

Tuesday May 13 2008

Declan Kidney was the last person Ireland should have chosen as their new national coach, it was claimed last night.

"I think it's a big mistake," said Australian David Knox, who has been Leinster's backs coach for the last three seasons. "The Irish international team badly needed a foreign coach. After the Eddie O'Sullivan era, they wanted someone to test these guys, show them a new way to play.

"Kidney's methods, like making the team train in the away strip they'd be wearing at Gloucester in the Heineken Cup and playing them a tape of the crowd noise at Kingsholm to get them used to the conditions, are bizarre.

"I would be embarrassed as a coach for people to know that. The Munster people think he is a messiah but I just don't understand that."

Knox says that an outsider would have helped Ireland achieve the one crucial thing that has eluded them during the O'Sullivan years. "They haven't evolved as a side. A guy like Jake White or Nick Mallett would have done that. You only have to look at the Italian backs this year to see that.

"They have played better and actually produced some good stuff; better than a lot of other teams. Their results weren't too good but at least there was some evolution there. There's been none with Ireland."

THE FAILINGS OF RONAN O'GARA AND MUNSTER

Knox was also heavily critical of Munster's playing style under Kidney. He acknowledges their successes in the Heineken Cup but maintains they have achieved glory in that competition at the expense of any style or flair.

"And when those players come to play at the very highest level, such as a World Cup, they come up short," he insists.

Who is he thinking of? None more so than Ronan O'Gara.

"I have been here, coaching in Ireland for three years, and I have never seen that guy create space for anybody. I've never seen him put anyone into a hole. Yet over here -- in the world of Irish rugby -- he ranks with Dan Carter as the best fly-half in the world. I have never heard such rubbish.

"O'Gara plays for a team that plays like Queensland used to do in Australia. Good on him, Munster are going to win the Heineken Cup again, I'm sure of that. But please don't come and say afterwards you play good rugby because look at what happened in the World Cup against even ordinary opposition. When the Irish forwards aren't playing at Thomond Park and wearing Munster jerseys, beating up the opposition every time, it's a different story.

"To me, guys like Ronan O'Gara and Stephen Jones of Wales are very similar. They're great provincial players for their team because they have a way of playing and they've been doing it for years. But when they go to the next level and they face the very best players in the world, they are out of their depth. You need to do more than that at Test level but they can't do it.

Problem

"You only had to see O'Gara playing for Ireland against England this year to understand the problem. He stood 10 metres back the whole game and just threw the ball to Shane Horgan and he got all the blame for that game."

What Knox calls Munster's limited, blinkered rugby is part of the reason for Ireland's players' inability to succeed on the world stage. "Munster's record is fantastic but you can't tell me they play anything but 10- man rugby," he said.

"Unfortunately, players can't just switch on style play when they get into the international arena. It doesn't work like that. Ireland did it just very occasionally, like when they beat England by 43 points at Croke Park. Even O'Gara attacked the line that day, as he did against Australia.

"Maybe once or twice in a lifetime, things go your way. But when you go back to Munster you can't do that. And like I say, you can't just turn a switch on or off. You have got to practise it; it's got to be an attitude.

"Munster get 30 points on the board by grinding away and when the other team is shot, they try and throw the ball around a bit. Then people say, what a great team. It's rubbish.

"If Doug Howlett had played for Leinster this season, he would have ended up scoring 30 tries. He's scored about three or four for Munster. He's seen as the greatest buy of the year but how often has he touched the ball? Maybe 10 times in a real attacking sense? I'm talking about serious attacking play, not chasing kick-aheads. Yet this is one of the world's premier wings.

"They have no idea how to use him. And the two other guys they brought in from the southern hemisphere, Rua Tipoki and Lifeimi Mafi, hardly ever played Super 14 rugby. I think Tipoki made a couple of appearances off the bench. They are both steppers, they never pass the ball."

Knox also slammed the failure of Munster to utilise the skills of Brian Carney. "Carney played NRL for the Newcastle Knights in Australia and was wing of the year. He decided to come to Munster but he hasn't learned anything about wing play there. All you do as a wing for them is spend your whole season chasing kicks.

"Who is advising that lad? He was the best wing in NRL, he's got to have something special. But he's gone back 10 years since he joined Munster."

THE PARANOID WORLD OF IRISH RUGBY

Knox admits he has been bewildered by what he called "the paranoid world" of Irish rugby during his stay in Dublin. Throughout those three years of his stay, he revealed that Ireland's then coach, Eddie O'Sullivan, never once contacted him to discuss any of the Irish international players with whom he was working, day in day out.

"I never met O'Sullivan once; never even talked to him. I had got five of his back-line in our team and was working with them every day. But I think it goes back to what I call the paranoid world of Irish rugby. I guess people think you want their job. What else reason could there be? After six months when you haven't heard a word from them you assume that is the case.

"You're Irish national coach and you've basically got just two provinces, with one or two representatives from Ulster, from whom to pick the team. Wouldn't you ask the guy in charge of them at provincial level 'How is this guy going, who's in form, who looks sharp at the moment?' I thought it was strange."

That blinkered approach under O'Sullivan was symptomatic of Ireland's narrow-minded playing style under him. Knox said: "You just had to see the way they played. There was no evolution in their game. They played Munster rugby and then gave the ball to the backs and hoped Brian O'Driscoll and Gordon D'Arcy would get through out wide.

"They had some good wins over England and won Triple Crowns. Fair enough. They also made much of beating Australia and South Africa in November Tests. But the southern hemisphere sides brought second-string teams.

Blooding

"They were just blooding guys, trying things. It seemed to escape Ireland's notice that most of the top Aussies and Springboks had stayed at home when they managed to beat them in Dublin. You couldn't take much from either of those games.

"I have watched Ireland for three years and it's been the same every time, nothing different. No variety, no attacking runners coming around the back of the man on attacking runs. And the personnel hasn't changed either.

"Horgan's best position is wing yet they picked him at centre when O'Driscoll and/or D'Arcy was injured. They had no one else. But they never put any pressure on the guys in the team. Yet that's what coaching is about: finding people and improving them, evolving a different game and making sure you move forward as a team.

He added: "Ireland have done none of that in the last three years yet the coaches these days have so much time with guys before internationals. It's not like the old days when you didn't even meet up until two days before the match."

Knox cited Ireland's inability to counter the speed rush defence they encountered in the World Cup as an example of how they had prepared poorly with a blinkered approach. "They didn't have any answer to that but I suppose they felt everything was going well and they didn't need to worry," he said.

The Aussie was amazed at one particular conversation he had with a member of Ireland's World Cup squad before they left for France last autumn.

"He told me before the tournament, 'We're in the semi-finals. We will be playing Italy in the quarter-finals and we're through'. He was convinced that was how it was going to go.

"I said, 'Sounds pretty easy'.

"There was this thing that they had done well in the Six Nations and everyone in Ireland was pumped up. A lot of people thought they would win the World Cup."

RUGBY IN THE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE

At times in the wide-ranging interview, Knox did not even spare his own players from criticism of the type of rugby produced. "When we played Munster at the RDS a few weeks ago, we won 21-12, six penalties and a field goal to four penalties. People were going crazy because it meant that we had almost certainly wrapped up the League.

"It was a really emotional game but I remember saying to someone afterwards, if that match had been played in Sydney, no more than 500 people would have turned up the next week. But here, people don't mind. It's amazing," he said.

"Over here, going to a game is a day out. They go to the pubs, then the game and go back to the pubs. It's like the Six Nations weekends. It's all a great atmosphere and everything but for me, the best part of the day is when they sing the anthems.

He added: "Most of the time, the rugby is so poor. But I guess that's what you have been brought up with. It's a pity because the game could be so much better here."

[Dinny Breen]

Some valid points but their lost in the bitterness. Seemingly he's not happy his contract at Leinster wasn't renewed.

Tomorrow he has a go at BOD and Leinster seemingly...

[AZOffaly]

Well at least he's making sure everyone gets hit

I think most of his criticisms about Ireland are valid, but I'm a bit surprised that he doesn't seem to think Munster have changed in the past 3-4 years. I think they are a good bit different.

[Dinny Breen]

There is defintely a difference but in the pressure games Munster revert to type and strangle opponents up front and play the corners. They will not look for continuity against Toulouse, it will be the corners all day long.

[Tankie]

Some valid points but their lost in the bitterness. Seemingly he's not happy his contract at Leinster wasn't renewed.

Tomorrow he has a go at BOD and Leinster seemingly...

Thats incorreect, he himself decided to go home and never looked for a contract renewal.

he makes alot of valid points and I do agree with him on the Kidney appointment but I think its very clear that the IRFU felt the same but when White and Howard said no to the job they had to give it to Kidney.

[AZOffaly]

That's the next logical step though Dinny, in a process. When you get to the stage where you trust yourself to play a varied game in tense situations, you have fully embedded it. They are not there yet, but are getting there. Against Gloucester, the second try would never have been scored by Munster 3 years ago. Howlett would have taken the turnover into a ruck, Stringer would have set up and passed it to Rog, who would have found touch around half way.

[Rossie11]

As much as we were brought up with poor rugby Aussies are brought up with bitterness..
In fairness I would agree with a lot of it. The OSullivan and Brian Carney points are very valid.
In my opinion Munster are hard to watch. They have improved this year but its more the fact they they have class backs on the field that you are expecting something special to happen. Howlett getting a pass every 10mins is a waste of talent.
Like Englands during their world cup win or Mourinhos Chelsea. Its successful but don't expect to be entertained.
Everyone to their own though

[AZOffaly]

As much as we were brought up with poor rugby Aussies are brought up with bitterness..
In fairness I would agree with a lot of it. The OSullivan and Brian Carney points are very valid.
In my opinion Munster are hard to watch. They have improved this year but its more the fact they they have class backs on the field that you are expecting something special to happen. Howlett getting a pass every 10mins is a waste of talent.
Like Englands during their world cup win or Mourinhos Chelsea. Its successful but don't expect to be entertained.
Everyone to their own though

As I've said Rossie, I think Munster have recognised that they cannot be a team of grinders and progress. At best they would stand still, and at worst they would be passed out. Leinster have recognised the same, and have concentrated on the pack this year, which makes them a better balanced outfit as well.

I think Munster are a lot different now than they were in 2006 even, and I think they will continue to evolve, as will Leinster, into being a team that wins ball in the forwards, goes through phases when it needs to, and attacks with pace out wide, or through centre field breaks, when the opportunity is there. That will be a good day for Ireland, because both provinces will be similar in style at that stage.

[Dinny Breen]

hats incorreect, he himself decided to go home and never looked for a contract renewal.

Na, Cheika himself was on RTE radio expressing his disappointment at his comments and its unfortunate he is just a bit bitter at his passing not having his contract renewed. Symptomatic of his frustration at not getting the best out of the troops this year. Not sure why he is discussing things down south as it has nothing to do with him. 

AZ, there's nothing wrong with 10 man rugby by the way, I see the evolution happening but they're a long way away from playing a 15 man game.

[AZOffaly]

There's a lot wrong with it Dinny, if it's the only trick in your bag. It's too predictable, and that's what Munster have recognised.

Having said that, horses for courses, and if 10 man rugby wins a game, then 10 man rugby will be what's used. I believe that Munster realise that 10 man rugby won't win you every game, or even allow you dominate 1 game for 80 minutes, so they are adding strings to their bow.

As you say, and as I said, it is very much 'In Progress' at the moment. Nowhere near the finished article, but it is promising for Munster, and for Ireland. (As is Leinsters own re-calibration).

[Dinny Breen]

Having said that, horses for courses, and if 10 man rugby wins a game, then 10 man rugby will be what's used. I believe that Munster realise that 10 man rugby won't win you every game, or even allow you dominate 1 game for 80 minutes, so they are adding strings to their bow.

Which is what I meant, Knox has also just been on the radio, he qualified his comments a lot better and didn't sound so bitter.

[AZOffaly]

I heard him on Newstalk, where did you hear him? What qualifications did he give?

[screenexile]

Having said that, horses for courses, and if 10 man rugby wins a game, then 10 man rugby will be what's used. I believe that Munster realise that 10 man rugby won't win you every game, or even allow you dominate 1 game for 80 minutes, so they are adding strings to their bow.

Which is what I meant, Knox has also just been on the radio, he qualified his comments a lot better and didn't sound so bitter.

Yeah that wouldn't surprise me... wouldn't be the first time the Indo twisted somebody's words to sensationalise the wholse issue! Pack of wankers they are!

[Tankie]

He's dead right about Kidney tho, we really would have been better off with fresh blood taking charge of the team.