Muineacháin v Fear Manach

[haranguerer]

Analysing and comparing performance over the past 5-10 years is academic.  It's what is happening now that matters.  Last year is being used as the mesure because it is the most recent championship form to compare to.

Thats a bizarre argument - dont use the last five, just use last yr?? Surely its a more accurate measuring stick if you use a longer period - you dont need to know stats to work that one out.

Anyway, all I care about is this yr now. With all due respect to monaghan, if their best team meets our best team, I expect a fermanagh win. I'd even go so far as to say it wouldnt be scraped - it certainly wouldnt be comfortable, but in the region of 3 pts or so. Have to say, I'm really looking forward to the game, cant rem hype like it for first round, and I think its down to the two sets of fans confidence in their own team, which is the way it should be. Usually one set of fans go more in hope than expectation, but this year I think both sets expect a win, which adds to the banter.

About the teams, I cant see freeman busting forward too often. Little is fly, and if freeman leaves him to support the attack and theres a hint of it breaking down, you can bet little will be completely free at the opposite side of the field receiving the ball. Frog hasnt been going well, but I think midfield will be ok for him, disrupting lennon. Think it will be three across the middle for monaghan, and if thats the case, then would expect clerkin to pick up womble, and would be very confident of either tommy mcelroy or damien kelly doing a good job on finlay, and giving him plenty to worry about defensively too. Both have great engines and are used to playing in the middle.

Roll on Sun!!

I just love it when a plan comes together......
(which isn't too often going by the spreads comp tables  )

About the game, I have to say I agree with just about everything Bingobus said. I dont think M'han will give the qualifiers a rattle at all, for a few reasons. If I was sitting on that m'han bench and I seen woods been taken off for being crap, then put back on again, I wouldnt be at training on tues. And a few said to me that there was nothing else on the bench - a county the size of m'han should have better players than that - are the coaching structures not there?  M'han were coming into that game yesterday thinking they were much better than they were, and it was a massive psychological blow to get utterly found out. Its not all doom and gloom for them; 2004 was great for Fermanagh, and brought the team on, but there was always going to be a lull after it. Fermanagh are a much better team now than 2004, and that stands however far they go this yr. They had a freak yr, which has given them the platform to build on for this yr. I think it will be a similar for m'han, in three yrs time, they willl be decent side. I think this is prob the end for the banty too, or should be.
About fermanghs chances...this is certainly the best prepared fermanagh side ever; yesterday Fermanagh weren't great, but still got the result quite comfortably, which gives me a lot of hope. The wides worry me, but it may not have been apparent on the tv, there was a very strong wind, which was swirling around and making shooting, esp into 1 side in particular, v difficult, so hopefully  that was the main reason. I disagree with the comment that derry/donegal have a stronger midfield, I think our midfield partnership are gonna show how good they really are this yr. Could fermanagh win ulster? I've never been as hopeful.....

And maguire01, when you've demonstrated fully your sporting knowledge like you have over the past few weeks, you're better not 'coming back to a few earlier quotes'. 'All due respect to fermanagh' - if someone ever actually says that to my face I'll hit them, so heres hoping I meet you somewhere... . And I know you are now trawling through the above and spluttering with indignation at the hypocrisy, before you do, check a few posts before my quote, and you'll see why that sentence is there...

[Zapatista]

Still can't agree with any ideas that the media ban had any negative effect on the game.  It may not have worked as a positive, but i don't see how it could have influenced the performance negatively.

I have to agree. I know in some cases where there are claims a media ban actually helped. In this case it probably didn't help but more probable that it had no effect. I think the benefit or lack of for a media ban are still inconclusive.

[thebandit]

They were told not to read the papers as well

[haranguerer]

I think its a case of assessing where your team are at mentally, and adjusting factors such as media bans accordingly. When a team is below the mental intensity you want them to be at, then things like media bans, wristbands etc can all help to focus their minds. When a team is in danger of becoming too pent up, a more relaxed attitude to media etc is better. When I read about the media ban, I thought that no team in the country was less likely to benefit than m'han, given that their manager loves the papers so it was a big change not to talk to press, and with the pressure that was on them, they did not need any more 'winding up'.

[bingobus]

Jesus that was terrible.

The lads looked dead on their feet at an early stage. Midfield was wiped out completely. Why wasn't Corey sent there for 10 minutes as it wasn't working for him at FF? Or Put JP to midfield and Vinny to FB? Clerkin was terrible and changes were needed.

Well done to the minors, who put a poor first half behind them to beat a fancied Fermanagh team. Full back line was outstanding in the 2nd half, Declan Farrell did well at CHB, Aaron McCarey is some prospect at 16 years of age. The big change was Keiran Hughes and Pete Dooney coming on, and we won far more posession as a result.

Btw Bingobus, is Strimmer not more that 30?

He is 32 in early August, but he went to the same school as Couchie Duffy when it somes to age details!!

Agree with JP in the middle, said that all year. Corey back to FB and see if he can find some form. Not working at FF. Corey did go out middle at end of first half and second half but he wasn't noticed!!

Maguire01, the point about the media ban is that it may have affected the performance. The thinking behind was probably a siege mentality thing, this can affect performance through added pressure, tension, nervous energy, distractions through avoiding talking to people etc, etc. It can also serve as a motivation to the opposition. All the nationals had picked up on it. Plus this stuff of changing the team after naming it. I was told of the real team on Saturday afternoon in Blayney.

[Zapatista]

They were told not to read the papers as well

To be fair we could all benefit from that.

[thebandit]

To be fair to JP, his goalie didn't give him a whole pile of help yesterday - Butsy plays as an extra full back, allowing JP to play from the front, which suits him an awful lot better. I also think Darren Hughes should have had more gametime yesterday.

[barryownsafarm]

Hard to believe Keenan got MOM on Sunday Game and Little in the Irish News.  My Ratings:

Gallagher - 7 (pretty much untested, we won quite a few of his kickouts)
Goan - 6.5 (looked ominous at the start with Freeman scoring and hitting the post, kept fairly tight on him, likely to be on Bradley or McFadden the next day which will be a further test)
Brady - 6.5 (Corey was pretty quiet which was prob more a testament to the lack of Monaghan possession and decent ball in, but Brady showed up ok, though a fit Barry Owens the next day - or even as a sub to lift the crowd with 10 minuts to go - will be important)
Sherry - 8 (wonderful game, had a lot of possession and used it well, tracked back well covered a lot of ground, great first half)
Kelly - 6 (ever present in the league but ytrdy wasn't one of his best games, made one telling block but his man played reasonably well, will hope for a better performance the next day but his place is secure)
McCluskey - 8 (awesome in the first half, great passing and carrying the ball, bit quieter in the second half but is showing himself to be one of the best CHB's in Ulster and is now playing in the position that the fans have been hoping for for years)
McElroy - 8 (very good game, won a good bit of ball around the middle, think Monaghan were trying to target him with the kickouts but he's deceptively tall and more than held his own against Finlay and co, runs all day, great performance)
Murphy - 7 (all the hype was about him before the match and to some extent he was overshadowed by McGrath, but broke a lot of ball and made one fine catch, didn't get forward as much as normally but nonetheless performed well)
McGrath - 8.5 (we seemed to dominate midfield in the second half and Marty was a leader with his catching, breaking and driving runs, at times seemed like a man possessed when on the ball and he drew a fair few frees from the monaghan backs, best performance since 04 and my MOM)
Keenan - 7.5 (I think his name, haircut and tanned legs got him the RTE MOM award more than his performance! still it was his best game for Fermanagh for a while on the back of a good performance in the league final, may be finding some form, did ok with the frees, has secured his place but hard to know which Ryan Keenan will show up the next day)
Sherry - 6 (not his best performance, hasn't really produced it since 04, has great potential but hasn't produced it and struggled to get involved yesterday, won't break the Murphy/McGrath midfield and doesnt seem comfortable at CHF, may start at FF the next day)
Little - 7.5 (covered a lot of ground as always, at times lost possesion or gave away frees, has a tendancy of running into his man rather than into space which I guess is to draw out frees, still he's very important to the way Fermanagh play)
McElroy - 7.5 (very good, useful addition to the team, did a lot of running and that may have been why he was subbed as he was playing v well up until then, scored a good goal which wasnt as easy as it looked on the TV - espec as his man was pulling him back)
McBarron - 7 (we saw the good and bad to McB again yesterday, yes he is a handful but he cant shoot, if the corner forwards can feed of him this doesnt matter, to be honest i'm glad he started allowing Marty to go to MF and I wouldn't be the greatest McDermott fan, may start again the next day)
Maguire - 7.5 (I have a feeling this could be Maguire's year, he is our best forward (by a long way), a great catch for a "wee man" and can kick of both feet, hard to know if he's better in the corner or in the half forwards, a great talent and he showed well in the first half especially)
McCabe - 7 (had a feeling he would make an appearance at some stage, a great talent, Belcoo didnt win the league last yr for no reason, will star the next day and would be a good addition either in half forwards or in the corner)

My team for the next day (the backs and midfield pick themselves these days)

Gallagher
Goan
Lyons (with Owens to come on at some stage)
Sherry
Kelly
Clucker
Tommy Mc
Murphy
McGrath
Keenan
McCabe
Little
McElroy
Sherry
Maguire

McCabe at CHF may be a bit of a gamble admittedly!

[Maguire01]

Analysing and comparing performance over the past 5-10 years is academic.  It's what is happening now that matters.  Last year is being used as the mesure because it is the most recent championship form to compare to.

Thats a bizarre argument - dont use the last five, just use last yr?? Surely its a more accurate measuring stick if you use a longer period - you dont need to know stats to work that one out.

Anyway, all I care about is this yr now. With all due respect to monaghan, if their best team meets our best team, I expect a fermanagh win. I'd even go so far as to say it wouldnt be scraped - it certainly wouldnt be comfortable, but in the region of 3 pts or so. Have to say, I'm really looking forward to the game, cant rem hype like it for first round, and I think its down to the two sets of fans confidence in their own team, which is the way it should be. Usually one set of fans go more in hope than expectation, but this year I think both sets expect a win, which adds to the banter.

About the teams, I cant see freeman busting forward too often. Little is fly, and if freeman leaves him to support the attack and theres a hint of it breaking down, you can bet little will be completely free at the opposite side of the field receiving the ball. Frog hasnt been going well, but I think midfield will be ok for him, disrupting lennon. Think it will be three across the middle for monaghan, and if thats the case, then would expect clerkin to pick up womble, and would be very confident of either tommy mcelroy or damien kelly doing a good job on finlay, and giving him plenty to worry about defensively too. Both have great engines and are used to playing in the middle.

Roll on Sun!!

I just love it when a plan comes together......
(which isn't too often going by the spreads comp tables  )

About the game, I have to say I agree with just about everything Bingobus said. I dont think M'han will give the qualifiers a rattle at all, for a few reasons. If I was sitting on that m'han bench and I seen woods been taken off for being crap, then put back on again, I wouldnt be at training on tues. And a few said to me that there was nothing else on the bench - a county the size of m'han should have better players than that - are the coaching structures not there?  M'han were coming into that game yesterday thinking they were much better than they were, and it was a massive psychological blow to get utterly found out. Its not all doom and gloom for them; 2004 was great for Fermanagh, and brought the team on, but there was always going to be a lull after it. Fermanagh are a much better team now than 2004, and that stands however far they go this yr. They had a freak yr, which has given them the platform to build on for this yr. I think it will be a similar for m'han, in three yrs time, they willl be decent side. I think this is prob the end for the banty too, or should be.
About fermanghs chances...this is certainly the best prepared fermanagh side ever; yesterday Fermanagh weren't great, but still got the result quite comfortably, which gives me a lot of hope. The wides worry me, but it may not have been apparent on the tv, there was a very strong wind, which was swirling around and making shooting, esp into 1 side in particular, v difficult, so hopefully  that was the main reason. I disagree with the comment that derry/donegal have a stronger midfield, I think our midfield partnership are gonna show how good they really are this yr. Could fermanagh win ulster? I've never been as hopeful.....

And maguire01, when you've demonstrated fully your sporting knowledge like you have over the past few weeks, you're better not 'coming back to a few earlier quotes'. 'All due respect to fermanagh' - if someone ever actually says that to my face I'll hit them, so heres hoping I meet you somewhere... . And I know you are now trawling through the above and spluttering with indignation at the hypocrisy, before you do, check a few posts before my quote, and you'll see why that sentence is there...

Firstly, the earlier quotes i picked up on for comment were all posted during/after the match - just happened to be quotes that were posted since i had last read the thread.

I stand by the fact that comparing performance over the last 5-10 years is pretty academic and that it's current form that matters. Fermanagh were miles better yesterday and i have clearly acknowledged that, but please point out where i demonstrated my 'lack of knowledge' (rather than difference of opinion).

As for the 'with all due respect' comment, please see above, i'm taking your use of the same to be intentional? - i'm missing your reference to an earlier post, can you please clarify? - also, my use of the phrase was not meant to be derogatory, was yours? I have great respect for Fermanagh - they're my second team and i'll be backing them all the way for Ulster.

Oh, and there's no need for the threats of violence - whether hidden behind a smiley or not.  It's neither big or clever.

[Main Street]

His re-introduction of Woods was a joke. If a player is subbed at HT, its for a reason and that player is gone, out of the game mentally and physically. To put him back on is criminal.

From the Man of the Match against Kerry, yesterday Woods looked about 15 -20kg overweight, sucking hard, clearly unfit and with an almost total absence of his usual ball skill levels.

[haranguerer]

Firstly, agreed on the threat of physical violence, it was very much in jest, apologies if sounded a bit menacing. But....you're very easy to predict Maguire. Read the last sentence of the post. I dont know how to make font on quotes bigger, but if you were going to do that you should have had the decency to do it for the last sentence which clearly demonstrates that i'm aware of the contradiction. I posted the 'with all due respect...' after there had been a heated debate on a m'han fans use (may even have been you) of the phrase before slating fermanagh. I used the phrase and went on to do the same to m'han to demonstrate a point.
And yes, when I say 'With all due respect...', I, like everyone else who has ever said it, am about to be very derogatory.

As for lack of knowledge, that isn't a problem at all, it doesnt matter if you know nothing or if you're an AI winning manager, but when you have little knowledge you shouldnt attempt to weigh in with the definitive judgement, which you regularly do. As for egs, read from page 1 on this thread.

I dont want to get into a childish feud, and there definitely is an element of gloating about my earlier post, but I think some leeway should be given; I thought you had a very arrogant attitude going into this game, moreso than other posters, and i've been waiting for this. I notice that you've retained it also - being gracious in defeat is not saying '...fermanagh were miles better yesterday' and in the same breath making ridiculous excuses for m'han. If you want to realise where m'han are at, but believe that anyone outside the county is slating them if they try to tell you, then read bingobuses post - an honest assessment, and what m'han need if they are to move on.

[Maguire01]

Okay, i take your 'with all due respect' point - but I genuinely wasn't using it in a derogatory fashion.

On the other point, this is a discussion Board and is a platform for offering opinions and arguing differences of opinion - any 'definitive judgement' (although i'm not exactly sure what your getting at there,) is merely my opinion. I'm still confused by my 'regular definitive judgements.

My posts from page 1 in relation to the game:

With the leagues now over, all roads point to Enniskillen - this day 4 weeks.

No doubt this will be a tight game.  Very difficult to judge Fermanagh on today's performance - some great play, but some very sloppy mistakes.  Leaked 3 goals today and the keeper, despite a great double penalty save, looked very nervous under the high ball.  Vinny Corey at FF could cause havoc here.

Both teams now having to bounce back after a disappointing result as well.  Should make for an intriguing contest.

and

On current form I think Monaghan will go into the game as slight favourites but I suspect they wouldn't be overly confident given how they fell off badly towards the end of the league.

I'd agree that Monaghan would be slight favourites - at a push.  Monaghan had a fairly bad last 2 games in the league, but in fairness, had Cork played all their games, they would have been sure promotion candidates and Westmeath have proved that they're not to be underestimated either.

As for Fermanagh, a great run in Division 3 potentially means very little, given the standard of some of the competition (as with Monaghan in last year's Division 2A).  Having said that, Fermanagh were never really a Division 3 team.  I'd be confident in saying that both Fermanagh and Monaghan are very competitive Division 2 teams.

Hopefully we'll have McQuaid and Duffy back and Lennon at full strength. If not, midfield could be advantage Fermanagh.

I think both are very measured, not in the slightest bit arrogant and not displaying any excessive confidence - are you sure you're not mixing my posts up with someone else's?


And as for weighing in with a "definitive judgement" and having "an arrogant attitude going into the game, moreso than other posters", look at this post:

Everyones being very mannerly and neighbourly on this thread so far, so here goes *deep breath*:

Monaghan are the most overrated team in Ireland. Theres no way they'll win an Ulster title this year, I doubt they'll beat Fermanagh. Once again they had a good start to the league, but were found out when it mattered. The 'legend' that is the Banty hasnt a clue, McElkennons actually running the show. Freemans a class act aright, (though just about every goal he scores comes from a push in the back of the defender), Finlays hot and cold, usually cold when you need him, Woods just isnt fit (which is a pity cos he really could be class) your man Hanrattys a clown, theres only one midfielder, and that entire defence is going to get found out 'on the dry sod'.

Discuss:

(btw dont think fermanagh are much beter, but apparently offence is best form of defence  )

EDIT (addition):

I notice that you've retained it also - being gracious in defeat is not saying '...fermanagh were miles better yesterday' and in the same breath making ridiculous excuses for m'han. If you want to realise where m'han are at, but believe that anyone outside the county is slating them if they try to tell you, then read bingobuses post - an honest assessment, and what m'han need if they are to move on.

As for the above, surely any post-match analysis comment has to consider the failings of the losing team (excuses, if you wish), as well as the reasons the winners won(?)

[haranguerer]

We'll draw a line under it ok? Read that post, it was an over obvious attempt to provoke a reaction in a light-hearted way.
I'd forgotten about it, thanks for quoting, I feel an enormous sense of satisfaction reading it,for it was vindicated by the game!

And I'll be honest, I was arrogant going into the game, but sure, I was right. 

Ok, ok, it is a message board, and is exactly the forum to post opinion, but no msg is in isolation. If noone got slated for past comments, or getting a game utterly wrong, there wouldnt be any craic. Friends? Love your neighbour and all that.....
Here, you can even have the last word!!!

[Maguire01]

Yeow! Last word is mine! 
No bother - but i think i have cleared my name (and i didn't get the game utterly wrong as i never prediced any Monaghan whitewash)!

Remember - you gave me the last word - you can't reply! 

[wanderer]

Delighted by the performance and the result yesterday. The team have been steadily improving under Malachy, and it was great to see a Fermanagh team not letting the heads drop at the start of the 2nd half when Monaghan were severely testing for the first sustained spell in the match. I'm not going to number lads, cause I didn't think that any one player had a bad game but here was my thoughts.
Gallagher dealt with one awkward ball at the edge of the square, and was cleaned up by Brady?. Was good distance on the kickouts, and looked assured.
Goan grew into the man-marking role as the game went on, and has continued to improve year on year. As someone has said previously, the next day will be a another big test for him.
Brady, to be honest I didn't notice him that much which is a good thing. As much as I like Barry Owens making heroic catches and tackles etc, i'd prefer our FB to be bored! Having little to do, suits me fine.
Sheery still looks like a wing back to me, and I don't think he's necessary that comfortable at times in the corner. However in saying that, he was immense yesterday and make a mockery of my pre-game ramblings (and my 1st sentence about him!), am struggling to remember any mistakes he made.
Kelly, wasn't his greatest day out but always available for the pass and bar one double bounce, where he appeared to look like he thought support was coming and didn't arrive, didn't do much wrong.
McCluskey, is as Fermanagh people have been quoting for years is a class act. Its laughable now, but I remember a fella telling me he was far to slow for county football! Distribution assured, positional sense close to perfect and organises and encourages all around him.
McElroy was possibly the lick of the half back line. Never stops running, makes opposition players track him and let men in possession run. I personally think this has the potential to be the best Fermanagh half back line in my lifetime of watching (approaching 20 years in case someone asks)
Murphy despite not having his best game of the year (which says more for the level he has been playing at, than his performance yesterday) was solid, hard working and had a few great fetches threw in that we take for granted at this stage. He definitely has more in him, and hopefully he can push on and show what all the chat has been about.
McGrath, what can I say. At last we seen the player that was an all-star. Injuries have curtailed his capacity this last few years, but he was back to the player we knew with that showing. Him and Murphy complemented each other well, and again have great potential as a partnership.
McElroy has started to show the qualities that have had him in or around the panel for a while now. Got stuck into the dirty work and deserved his scores. Another who has more in him, and this win should help him settle.
Sherry, did what he needed to do, but slightly disappoints by always being on the peripheral of a game when he has all the talent in the world to take it by the scruff of the neck and make it his own.
Keenan also had his best game in some time. Was decent with the shooting, although will know he could have had more. Nice to see him playing football and not getting worked up and wasting his time playing the man rather than the game. Possibly being exposed to county at such a young age didn't help him, but a real confidence player who can push on and impress for the rest of the summer. (I dunno where he got that tan, but the Tempo weather must be like the Algarve at the minute!)
Little in my eyes was MOTM. Covered an unreal amount of ground, and was the basis for most attacks and the picked up an unreal amount of ball within our own 45 & 21 yard lines.
McBarron. It was too much to expect 2 goals, but a real team player yesterday! Is a real pain for the opposition marker, unorthodox as they come but will not give up on a ball.
Maguire, done superb to actually get the ball back towards goal when McBarron scored and was his usual self yesterday. Attacks the ball with no fear, and good of both feet. Won some great 50/50 balls and as I've said before is our best forward.
As for the subs,
McCabe done well. Superb point, which if Paddy Bradley scored Brolly would have passed out with excitement. Showed why Mal wanted him in the panel. Hopefully falls in love with it and devotes himself to it for  a year or two
Keenan looked a bit of the pace which is understandable but got his hands on the ball a few times which should help him. Although he has a tendance to run straight at the man with the ball and not check his runs, bringing more opposition players into the ball carrying players immediate area

All in all a good game. The one thing I would say is that some of the players need a wee bit more common sense when shooting. I'll never criticize a man for having a go, after spending the last 4 years roaring at them to 'hit the f%^&ing' thing but some of the decisions were slightly ambitious. Its hard to say without sounding critical but thats not the intent, so here goes.
At a few points in the game some of the lads just lost themselves and went for Superstar scores. Goan and T.McElroy both at different times made great work up the wing and then from 40 yards took highly ambitious attempts which rarely make it. The same started to happen after McCabe scored. Everyone was trying with the outside of their foot when easier alternatives were available. It doesn't matter now, but it would be a shame if the lads didn't maybe look at it again and think they might have done differently. In saying that if the alternative is the return to basketball passing across the 21, then they can shoot from 50 yds!

And finally onto Monaghan. I am no expert on Monaghan so I can't say whether the media ban was a factor or not. But it is strange that the favourites used it. As people have said before, some people use it to create a siege mentality but if no-one is against you I don't know what benefit it is. The players have normal lives, so its not as if they didn't know what was being said in the build up.
I was disappointed in Monaghans discipline yesterday and the referees failure to stamp it out earlier. At one point Kelly & Sherry? were taken out in the corner with off the ball challenges. T.Freeman had a few swipes at McCluskey at one point on the Vesey side of the field and nothing was done. D.Freeman? getting involved after McGrath  put him over the sideline. Countless shirt pulls within place kicking distances were let go. What your man thought a kick, a stamp, and a punch were gonna achieve is beyond me. I have been slightly surprised when people have accused Monaghan of being a dirty team but yesterday I thought they let themselves down with both their performance and their behaviour.

Now that I'm on a bit of a rant, would someone please put an advert in the national papers that says that if you have some small players (like Fermanagh) that 'hit them hard' is not a new or especially effective tactic! After playing with and against lads like Little, Maguire, Keenan being hit hard is not something they have not came across before, and will at some point (very nearly happened already with Maguire) cause a extremely serious incident. Now I'm not asking for football to be non-contact by any means but I do think that referees need to protect the skillful players a bit more. I don't think that it was a coincidence that McQuaid took the swing at McCabe, rather than McGrath or Murphy or a bigger lad. All the hardness of a soft boiled egg