Ballinderry Shamrocks in favour of players grants

[dublinfella]

No, i'm saying that precedents exist in both directions which people claim apply here. i disagree with both sides on the grounds that the GAA and our structures are not replicated anywhere else.

What has that got to do with it? A player gets paid, their legal status changes. The GAA's structure has SFA to so with it. How does the internal structure and ethos of a body effect whether its professional or not?

shows how little you know about gaa if you think the gaa's structure has nothing to do with the grants issue.
you should keep quiet on things like this, you are showing yourself up.

thats not the point being discussed. payment, from whatever source, means that the legal framework changes. the GAA's structure matters what to that simple fact?

[behind the wire]

one of the core principles on which the gaa's structure is based will now be changed. thats how the gaa's structure will be relevant in all this.

at the moment all gaa members are the same. with the grants coming into effect this will change as one group of memers will be different to the rest of us.

the fact that you cannot identify this basic approach shows that you have little knowledge of the gaa. there is a serious debate going on at present among gaa members regarding this issue and people like soccerfella stirring things up when they have little or know knowledge is unhelpful.

and before you start, you are entitled to your opinion but unfortunately due to your obvious want to constantly stir things up coupled with your limited knowledge of gaa your opinion carries little weight and in some cases is simply unhelpful.

[dublinfella]

one of the core principles on which the gaa's structure is based will now be changed. thats how the gaa's structure will be relevant in all this.

at the moment all gaa members are the same. with the grants coming into effect this will change as one group of memers will be different to the rest of us.

the fact that you cannot identify this basic approach shows that you have little knowledge of the gaa. there is a serious debate going on at present among gaa members regarding this issue and people like soccerfella stirring things up when they have little or know knowledge is unhelpful.

and before you start, you are entitled to your opinion but unfortunately due to your obvious want to constantly stir things up coupled with your limited knowledge of gaa your opinion carries little weight and in some cases is simply unhelpful.

I know all this you twat, I'm asking you what LEGAL exemption the GAA's structure has when employment law becomes an issue.

Try reading what I said

[behind the wire]

personal abuse tut tut tut. i know a few boys that got banned for less!

the possible effect on gaa structure from a legal point of view has been well documented by the ofonebelief group (ie economic activity, transfers etc - all impacting upon gaa structure), a few of whom happen to be fairly high profile members of the legal profession.

again your limited knowledge of the issue is coming back to haunt you. in fact i would think it safe to say that your contribution to this board - a gaa board - is close to worthless. the ordinary members can slearly see that you have ulterior motives in that you appear to extract some form of deranged pleasure from highlighting negative gaa news at almost all available opportunities.

tankie has also identified this on another thread.

most of us, yes most of us on this board are gaa members. we dont agree with each other all the time, but at the end of the day we all enjoy being associated in some way with the gaa. we recognise that our association is far from perfect however im sure we will all agree that we do not need a soccer loving gaa hating eejit (personal abuse, i know) identifying the problems for us. although you do start debates your chronic lack of knowledge on basic gaa principles is laughable.

best of luck to rovers this season. maybe when you are making your 'f*** off and die banners' you can have a bit of debate about the grants issue surrounding the gaa with some like minded people. 

[cornafean]

From Hoganstand.com, referenced by AnReiteoir on anfearrua.com

Again not a dickybird as yet on gaa.ie...




Government Grants distribution
18 March 2008

ANNUAL TEAM PERFORMANCE SCHEME AND ANNUAL SUPPORT SCHEME FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF EXCELLENCE
IN THE INDIGENOUS SPORTS OF HURLING AND GAELIC FOOTBALL

1. Introduction

The Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism has provided the funds to allow the Irish Sports Council to introduce the schemes ("the Schemes"), details of which are set out below to recognise the outstanding contribution of Gaelic inter-county players to our indigenous sport, to meet additional costs associated with elite team performance and to encourage aspiring teams and players to reach the highest levels of sporting endeavour.

2. Rationale

Gaelic senior inter-county players provide the window through which our national games are viewed nationally and internationally. It is recognised that successful teams prepare and train to highest international standards for team sports. It is also recognised that the current scheme of tax relief for professional sports people does not apply to Gaelic players because of their amateur status. The Schemes will be based on participation in the GAA All-Ireland football championship and the GAA All-Ireland hurling championship ("the Championships").

3. Definitions

For the purposes of the Schemes:-

Central Council Means the Central Council of the GAA.
Championship Season Means in relation to an inter-county team the period commencing 1 May and ending on the date that the team ceases to participate in the Championships.
Eligible Expenses Means vouched expenses (including but not limited to appropriate mileage expenses) incurred by a player in a Relevant Year in the course of compliance by him with the requirements of paragraph 7.2 (Conditions applicable to players personally).
However, such expenses must be in accordance with the standard rates in respect of such expenses as are from time to time approved by Central Council.
Eligible Expenses do not include expenses to the extent that those expenses have already been reimbursed or discharged by the County Committee. However, where an expense has partly been discharged by the County Committee, the balance of that expense may be included in Eligible Expenses.
Maximum Refund Has the meaning given in paragraph 8.4 (Refund of Eligible Expenses).
National Scheme Committee Means the National Scheme Committee referred to in paragraph 9.1
Panel Means in relation to an inter-county team participating in a Championship the players from time to time on the Panel of players recognised by the Team Committee as being the players from which the team is chosen, and may include injured players retained on that Panel.
Reference Amount Means in relation to a player the amount set out in the second column of Schedule 1 opposite the performance position achieved by his Panel as set out in the first column.
Relevant Year Means the period commencing 1 January of the relevant Championship Season and ending at the end of the Championship Season.
Refund Amount Has the meaning given in paragraph 8.2 (Refund Amount).
Scheme Points Means the number of points allocated in accordance with paragraph 8.3 (Scheme Points) to a player for the purpose of calculating his share of the Total Panel Amount appropriate to his team set out in Schedule 1.
Team Committee Means in relation to an inter-county team, the County Panels Finance Sub-Committee or such other body or person as is from time to time designated by the National Scheme Committee in relation to that team.
Team Development Account Has the meaning given in paragraph 10 (Team Development Account).
Total Panel Amount Means in relation to a Panel the amount set out in the third column of Schedule 1opposite the performance position achieved by the Panel as set out in the first column.

4. The Schemes

4.1. Annual Team Performance Scheme

The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the Championships and will apply to the twelve GAA football teams qualifying for the third round of the All Ireland Qualifier Series or reaching a provincial final and the twelve hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup.

4.2. Annual Support Scheme for the development of excellence

The Annual Support Scheme for the development of excellence will be based on the achievement of standards and performance based criteria designed to raise/maintain the levels of preparation of the teams and individuals. This Scheme shall apply to teams participating in the Championships, but not qualifying for the Team Performance Scheme.

5. Funding

An amount of ?3.5m will be provided in 2008 to fund the Schemes. The amount required to fund the Schemes in subsequent years shall be determined by the Minister. The Irish Sports Council shall transfer that amount to Central Council for the account of the National Scheme Committee following the furnishing of such accounts and supporting documentation as the Irish Sports Council shall require.

6. Development Plans

The GAA will publish a template of a development plan to be adopted by each Team Committee in relation to each of the county's Championship teams following the approval of that template by the National Scheme Committee. That template will include amongst other items the following:-

6.1. key performance indicators for the team. These indicators will include Panel targets and objectives;

6.2. formulation of an appropriate training regime for the Panel ;

6.3. provision of comprehensive information and advice on the anti-doping code;

6.4. provision as appropriate of qualified personnel to enhance player/team development including advice and support in all aspects of team and individual fitness, nutrition, health and wellbeing associated with the playing of the games;

6.5. presence of certified medical personnel at all inter-county games;

6.6. regular fitness testing of players;

6.7. setting of minimum requirements in respect of injured players to demonstrate that they are participating satisfactorily in rehabilitation;

6.8. participation by players in coaching and games development work in the county on a voluntary basis and in initiatives at county and national level to promote their sports as a healthy activity for all ages;

6.9. establishment of a code of conduct to which all players and team management are required to adhere;

6.10. acceptance by the Team Committee and the team management of the charter for inter-county teams to be published by the GAA and as amended from time to time;

6.11. establishment of a system to take account of players joining or departing from the Panel.

7. Conditions of eligibility for participation in the Schemes

A player shall not be entitled to participate in the Schemes unless his team is one of the teams to which the Schemes apply and the conditions set out below applicable to his team and to the player personally have been fulfilled.

7.1. Conditions applicable to the team

7.1.1. The Team Committee has adopted a development plan in accordance with the template and has submitted that plan to the National Scheme Committee in accordance with such procedures and timetable as are specified by the National Scheme Committee from time to time.

7.1.2. The Team Committee furnishes such evidence as is, from time to time, required by the National Scheme Committee to demonstrate compliance with the development plan.

7.2. Conditions applicable to players personally

The Team Committee and/or the player concerned (as required by the National Scheme Committee) makes such returns and furnishes such evidence as is, from time to time, specified by the National Scheme Committee to demonstrate compliance by the player concerned with the following requirements:-

7.2.1. attendance at at least 80% of all training sessions and matches of the team in the Championship Season;

Where a player is injured and is excused by the team management from attendance, the minimum attendance will be 80% of all training sessions and matches other than those for which the player has been excused.

7.2.2. demonstrating in accordance with the development plan of improvement in fitness through regular testing;

7.2.3. strict compliance with the anti-doping code;

7.2.4. in the case of injured players, demonstrating in accordance with the development plan that the player is participating satisfactorily in rehabilitation;

7.2.5. commitment to participate in coaching and games development work in his county on a voluntary basis;

7.2.6. in cooperation with the Local Sports Partnerships, a commitment to visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in his sport;

7.2.7. involvement as is from time to time reasonably required in initiatives at county and national level to promote his sport as a healthy activity for all ages.


8. Refund of Eligible Expenses

8.1. Basis of Schemes

The Schemes will operate by way of refund of Eligible Expenses in accordance with the provisions set out below and by way of the payment to the Team Development Fund in accordance with clause 10 (Team Development Fund). The structure of the Schemes recognises that the longer a player's team is involved in the Championship, the greater the expenses that will be incurred by the player. Although the total of funding available to a team is calculated by reference to 30 players per Panel, it is recognised that there may be more than 30 players per Panel and that there may be players whose participation on the Panel is only for part of a Championship Season.

8.2. Refund Amount

A player shall be entitled to a refund of Eligible Expenses (his "Refund Amount") up to the lesser of his Reference Amount and his Maximum Refund.

8.3. Scheme Points

A player will be credited with 100 Schemes Points if he has been on the Panel for the entirety of the Championship Season. Where a player has been on the Panel for part only of the Championship Season, he shall be entitled to 20 Scheme Points for each one fifth part of the Championship Season that he has been on the Panel, rounded up to the nearest fifth part.

8.4. Maximum Refund

The Maximum Refund to which a player is entitled is that part of the relevant Total Panel Amount that is in the same proportion that his Scheme Points bear to the total Scheme Points of his Panel.

8.5. Dual players

A player who is on the Panel of both the hurling and football teams of his county shall elect, prior to making an application for a refund of Eligible Expenses in respect of a year under the Schemes, the team in respect of which he intends to make an application. For the purpose of this Scheme, the player shall be deemed not to have been part of the Panel of the other team. In no circumstances may a player claim a refund of expenses in relation to two Panels.

8.6. Unclaimed Expenses

In the event that a player or players do not claim the refund of Eligible Expenses up to the Refund Amount, either in whole or in part, the amount not so claimed shall be dealt with in accordance with paragraph 10 (Team Development Account) and shall not be added to the amount claimable by the other members of the Panel calculated in accordance with paragraph 8.4 (Maximum Refund).

8.7. Total Panel Amount

In no circumstances shall the amount of Eligible Expenses refunded under the Schemes to a Panel exceed the Total Panel Amount of that Panel as set out in Schedule 1.

9. Administration of the Schemes

9.1. National Scheme Committee

The National Scheme Committee will comprise three nominees of Central Council, one of whom shall be the chairperson, and two nominees of the GPA. The National Scheme Committee shall regulate their meetings as they see fit. The quorum for the transaction of business shall be three, one of whom shall be a nominee of the GPA and one of whom shall be a nominee of Central Council. The National Scheme Committee may have meetings by telephone, either by conference telephone connections or by a series of telephone conversations, or by exchange of facsimile or email transmissions and addressed to the chairman. The views of the National Scheme Committee, as ascertained by such telephone conversations or facsimile or email transmissions, and communicated to the chairman, shall be treated as votes in favour of or against a particular resolution. A resolution passed at any meeting held in this manner and signed by the chairman shall be as valid and effectual as if it had been passed at a meeting of the National Scheme Committee duly convened and held.

9.2. Procedures

The National Scheme Committee shall be responsible for the administration of the Schemes and shall determine from time to time the procedures and regulations to be followed in connection with the making and processing of applications for refunds under the Schemes and in connection with the establishment of Team Development Accounts, the application of the funds paid to Team Development Accounts under the Schemes and the administration of the Schemes generally.


10. Team Development Account

10.1. Approval of Team Development Account

In relation to each Panel, the Team Development Fund shall be such account of the Team Committee as is from time to time approved by the National Scheme Committee, subject to such conditions, regulations and procedures as may from time to time be set out by the National Scheme Committee in relation to any such Team Development Account.

10.2. Payments to Team Development Fund

To the extent that the Total Panel Amount in respect of a Panel has not been claimed by players on the Panel,(being a Panel to which the Schemes apply and in respect of which the provisions of paragraph 7.1 (Conditions Applicable to the Team) have been fulfilled) has not been claimed by Players on that Panel, the balance shall be paid to by the National Scheme Committee to the Team Development Account .

10.3. Implementation of Development Plan

The funds paid under the Schemes to a Team Development Account shall be applied in implementation of the relevant development plan submitted pursuant to clause 7.1 (Conditions applicable to the Team). The Team Committee shall account to the National Scheme Committee in relation to the application of the funds under the Schemes paid to the Team Development Account in such manner as is reasonably required from time to time by the National Scheme Committee.

11. Miscellaneous Provisions

11.1. Schemes additional to existing funding

The Schemes are additional to and will not negatively impact upon existing funding or any future funding provided by the Government to the GAA through the Irish Sports Council or otherwise.

11.2. Amateur status of GAA not affected

Nothing in the Schemes is intended to or shall be implemented so as to undermine that amateur status or to be in conflict with rule 11 of the Official Guide of the GAA.

11.3. Acknowledgements of GPA

The GPA has acknowledged that:-

11.3.1. the refund of expenses as contemplated by the Schemes shall only apply for so long as government funding is made available for that purpose, will cease when and if Government funding ceases, that there is no responsibility on the GAA to continue funding the Schemes in that event and that no such request will be made by the GPA;

11.3.2. it recognizes that the GAA is an amateur association and their absolute commitment to the maintenance of the amateur status of the GAA and that nothing in the Schemes is intended to or shall be implemented so as to undermine that amateur status or to be in conflict with rule 11 of the Official Guide of the GAA.

11.4. Tax liability

The Schemes are intended to reimburse vouched expenses only to the extent that such reimbursement does not give rise to a liability to tax. However each player shall account to the Revenue Commissioners for any taxation payable in respect of the sums payable to him pursuant to the Schemes and shall make such returns in relation to such payments as are required by law.

11.5. Player welfare

This Scheme does not affect the responsibility of the GAA for the welfare of its players.

11.6. Independent review

The Schemes shall be subject to independent review every three years to be carried out under the aegis of Irish Sports Council. Arising from that review, the Minister may revoke or alter one or more of the Schemes in such manner as the Minister considers appropriate.

11.7. Entitlement to vary Schemes

The Minister may alter the terms of the Schemes from time to time.

12. Dispute resolution

In the event of any dispute or difference as to any entitlement under these Schemes, that dispute or difference shall be submitted to the National Scheme Committee for determination. Unless any party to that dispute gives notice of appeal of the determination of the National Scheme Committee within 10 days of the National Scheme Committee notifying its decision to the parties concerned, the decision of the National Scheme Committee shall be final and binding on all parties.

If notice of such appeal is given within the time referred to above, the matter shall be finally determined by an appeal committee comprised of one person nominated by Central Council, one person nominated by the GPA and one independent person appointed by agreement between the nominees of Central Council and of the GPA. The Appeal Committee shall make the determination by a majority vote, shall regulate the proceedings as it sees fit and its determination shall be final and binding upon the parties. The Appeal Committee shall act as experts and not as arbitrators. The Appeal Committee shall be entitled to determine in what proportion the costs and expenses incurred by the Appeal Committee shall be borne by the parties to the appeal.





DATE: ____________________________
SCHEDULE 1

REFERENCE AMOUNTS AND TOTAL PANEL AMOUNTS


Annual Team Performance Awards
Performance Position Reference Amount
? Total Panel Amount
?
All-Ireland SFC
Finalists 2,500 75,000
Semi-Finalists 2,300 69,009
Quarter-Finalists 2,100 63,000
Qualifiers Round 3 2,000 60,000

All-Ireland SHC
Finalists 2,500 75,000
Semi-Finalists 2,300 69,000
Quarter-Finalists 2,100 63,000
Phase 4 2,000 60,000
Phase 2/3 1,900 57,000

Annual Grant for the Development of Excellence in the Indigenous
Sports of Hurling and Gaelic Football
Performance Position Grant Amount
? Total Panel Amount
Tier 1 - All-Ireland SFC
Qualifiers Round 2 1,800 54,000
Qualifiers Round 1 1,700 51,000

Tier 2 - Tommy Murphy Cup SF
Finalists 1,700 51,000
All Other Participants 1,550 46,500

Tier 2 - Christy Ring Cup SH
Finalists 1,700 51,000
All Other Participants 1,550 46,500

Tier 3 - Nicky Rackard Cup SH
Finalists 1,500 45,000
All Other Participants 1,400 42,000

[cornafean]

I love this bit

The Schemes are intended to reimburse vouched expenses only to the extent that such reimbursement does not give rise to a liability to tax. However each player shall account to the Revenue Commissioners for any taxation payable in respect of the sums payable to him pursuant to the Schemes and shall make such returns in relation to such payments as are required by law.

[behind the wire]

ask soccerfella, he knows all about the legal implications etc

[dublinfella]

personal abuse tut tut tut. i know a few boys that got banned for less!

the possible effect on gaa structure from a legal point of view has been well documented by the ofonebelief group (ie economic activity, transfers etc - all impacting upon gaa structure), a few of whom happen to be fairly high profile members of the legal profession.

again your limited knowledge of the issue is coming back to haunt you. in fact i would think it safe to say that your contribution to this board - a gaa board - is close to worthless. the ordinary members can slearly see that you have ulterior motives in that you appear to extract some form of deranged pleasure from highlighting negative gaa news at almost all available opportunities.

tankie has also identified this on another thread.

most of us, yes most of us on this board are gaa members. we dont agree with each other all the time, but at the end of the day we all enjoy being associated in some way with the gaa. we recognise that our association is far from perfect however im sure we will all agree that we do not need a soccer loving gaa hating eejit (personal abuse, i know) identifying the problems for us. although you do start debates your chronic lack of knowledge on basic gaa principles is laughable.

best of luck to rovers this season. maybe when you are making your 'f*** off and die banners' you can have a bit of debate about the grants issue surrounding the gaa with some like minded people. 

Right then, explain to me where I am wrong. The bit when someone can approach the European COurt of Justice and say "We are the GAA, employment law doenst apply to us because of our structures".

Its inane naivity to think that the GAA are somehow going to be different to any other sports body when this happens.

[heganboy]

As someone who has been spent many a year avoiding the tax man, if the issuer of the money warns you that you are liable for the tax owed on the money, then it falls under EU legislation.
Unfortunately EU legislation then views that as pay for play, and means that any player is then free to transfer to play anywhere else otherwise the GAA is in breach of his or her right to freedom of movement of labour. GAA rulebook is superseded by EU legislation, that is all there is too it.

[behind the wire]

As someone who has been spent many a year avoiding the tax man, if the issuer of the money warns you that you are liable for the tax owed on the money, then it falls under EU legislation.
Unfortunately EU legislation then views that as pay for play, and means that any player is then free to transfer to play anywhere else otherwise the GAA is in breach of his or her right to freedom of movement of labour. GAA rulebook is superseded by EU legislation, that is all there is too it.

correct

[Hound]

As someone who has been spent many a year avoiding the tax man, if the issuer of the money warns you that you are liable for the tax owed on the money, then it falls under EU legislation.
Unfortunately EU legislation then views that as pay for play, and means that any player is then free to transfer to play anywhere else otherwise the GAA is in breach of his or her right to freedom of movement of labour. GAA rulebook is superseded by EU legislation, that is all there is too it.

correct

correct my arse.

What kinda feckin eejits are yis?

Total nonsense.

1. Being warned you may be liable for tax is an absolute normal caveat. Pure and utter nonsense to say that this brings it within EU legilsation. Everything will be settled under Irish law. Only if there is still disagreement, one side, if they wish, can go to the EU courts. But thats the same for everything.

2. The GAA will be paying no more than vouched civil service expense rates. They have received confirmation from Revenue that if this is done as intended, there will be no tax liability.

3. The GAA have received a written opinion from Senior Counsel that there is no issue with European law. So finally those couple of "experts" who keep going on about EU law meaning the players are now professional, have their answer.

[Hound]

Lets be honest here - dressing this up as extra expenses is a complete whitewash. A cute hoor way of presenting things maybe but I still reckon if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its fairly likely that its a duck.

I agree with your and AZ's assessment of the possible issue in the case of a lad who doesn't drive but i'm sure some other cute hoor way round that will be found to get him his wages errr expenses.

Indeed, but in fairness to the GAA, it looks like they've done a really good and thorough job.

As I've been saying from day 1, far from these grants from being the first step to professionalism as many naysayers have been repeating, the grants will ensure that the GAA stays amateur for longer. This document, which the GPA have signed up to, copperfastens it. A victory for the GAA and a victory for the GPA. Well done all.

I don't see how any right-minded person, who has read the document in full, can be against it now. Though maybe someone will surprise me!....

[magpie seanie]

the grants will ensure that the GAA stays amateur for longer. This document, which the GPA have signed up to, copperfastens it.

There's this lassie I saw a couple of weeks ago that told me on numerous occasions in the past that she loved me and how much she loved me (and I think she genuinely did at the time). She's now married to some English bloke and has two kids with him!

To use the analogy I'd be less than convinced that the GPA's declaration of love for amateurism is honest (I'm sure I'm not the only sceptic on this point).

I've read the document in full and far from being convinced it worries me even more. The lengths that are being gone to by all Central Council to hide the fact that these are payments for playing intercounty football and hurling - something specifically prohibited by rule - is troubling. The lack of a wide ranging debate is also a source of concern. It appears "the grassroots" are only consulted if they're going to come up with the right answer.

[Smokin Joe]

I posted this on the other thread:


11.4.   Tax liability

The Schemes are intended to reimburse vouched expenses only to the extent that such reimbursement does not give rise to a liability to tax. 

Erm, how exactly is that going to be done?

I had thought the original idea of the grant was that it was a grant, not reimbursement of expenses which are already being reimbursed.

We (the GAA) have made a real mess of this 

[Hound]

I posted this on the other thread:


11.4.   Tax liability

The Schemes are intended to reimburse vouched expenses only to the extent that such reimbursement does not give rise to a liability to tax. 

Erm, how exactly is that going to be done?

I had thought the original idea of the grant was that it was a grant, not reimbursement of expenses which are already being reimbursed.

We (the GAA) have made a real mess of this 

Now its simply an increase in (vouched) expenses. How's that making a mess? It makes things easier.