Will anyone inn Fianna Fail shout stop?

[deiseach]

Why would the party give a fcuk when the public don't? They've been rubberstamping the behaviour of dirtbags like Ahern for the past decade. The Irish electorate have little use for integrity or ethics.

I wouldn't be privy to the minutes of any FF cumann meetings, but I find it hard to believe that they are all characterised by moustache-twirling men in black capes cackling at the gullibility of the electorate in the face of Bertie's machinations. I'd have thought that they'd be exasperated at the whole affair and want rid of the embarrassment (although, now that I think about it, the fact that no one is breaking ranks suggests the former scenario is more likely). Winning elections did not save Tony Blair from his own party.

[J70]

Do you think the likes of Blair and Mandelson would NOT have survived in Fianna Fail?

[deiseach]

Do you think the likes of Blair and Mandelson would NOT have survived in Fianna Fail?

I think Blair would have survived. Mandelson, no. Mandelson would struggle to get elected to a town council in Ireland. You don't have rotten boroughs here where the party executive can fast track the latest young Turk and be sure he'll be elected without ever being exposed to the rubber chicken circuit. Unless he was the son of a party elder, which is another thread . . .

[J70]

Do you think the likes of Blair and Mandelson would NOT have survived in Fianna Fail?

I think Blair would have survived. Mandelson, no. Mandelson would struggle to get elected to a town council in Ireland. You don't have rotten boroughs here where the party executive can fast track the latest young Turk and be sure he'll be elected without ever being exposed to the rubber chicken circuit. Unless he was the son of a party elder, which is another thread . . .

I meant in regards to the scandals that forced his resignations.

[deiseach]

I meant in regards to the scandals that forced his resignations.

I think he would not have survived because he would not have the support of the party, although I also think he would never have gotten to the top of his party in the first place - see above.

[J70]

He wouldn't have had the support of the party because of the nature of the scandals or because of some other reason? What he went down for was pretty mild in comparison to the shenanigans in Fianna Fail.

[deiseach]

He wasn't liked by the rank and file for alll manner of reasons. Aloof, cold, arrogant, all of the above. Compare and contrast his treatment with that of Tessa Jowell, who claimed to be ignorant of her husband receiving £344,000 from Silvio Berlusconi. Perhaps Bertie Ahern would brazen out a similar revelation, but the fact that she surivived shows British politics is not inherenty more ethical than the Irish model. She survived, not because (in my opinion) anyone believed her denials - £344,000! - but because the footsoldiers of the party like her.

[Zapatista]

Can Irish people not set their own standards? It makes no difference who he is compared to. By my standards he is not fit for office.

[his holiness nb]

::)Answer the question Sam. This question is just going to hold up the thread and we all know how good FF are at holding up proceedings.

You see its this kind of talk that makes me despair. I asked the question and you say "we all know how good FF are at holding up proceedings".
Despite me already saying I am not a fan of FF or Bertie. I havent voted for FF in the past 2 elections (not even third or 4th choice. Yet unless I come on here and proclaim my love of FG / Labour, I am labelled this way.

Its like the George Bush "if you arent with us, you are against us" bullshit propoganda.

At this stage, despite my reservations about FG, I think its time for a change in government. But comments like that and Son of Sams efforts do nothing to convince people to change their minds about how they vote.  If anything that sort of talk will turn undecided voters away from you.

Similarly to Enda Kennys personality. They need a change of leadership ASAP, Kenny will never bring them into government.

[Zapatista]

Apologies HH. I didn't want to make out your FF. I did see your earlier post and know you are not I just used it as a chance to have a swipe at them. BTW I am no fan of EK however, I don't believe he is corrupt. In fact I much prefer the policy of FF but I just don't trust them to do what the say. I don't trust their leader and his cohorts and this is why I would sooner vote FG. I don't like FG as a Unionist party but I think they tell a lot less lies and are actually sincere about their bad policy. I beg FF to sort out this inherent selfish, corrupt infestation they have in their Party.

[his holiness nb]

Well, I cant argue with anything there Zaptista, well said.

[Zapatista]

Like I said Cowen is on very thin ice. He is now fully behind a crook as leader of the country. Cowen himself is not fit for office. The oppertunity for him to do the right thing is gone. When Ahern leaves office in disgrace Cowen will have to go with him. This is the begining of the end for FF. Ahern could have been giving up to save the party but Cowen has miised that window and now the two most influential figures in FF are bound together in a downward spiral that will end in a with a bang.

[Zapatista]

Is anyone that ever fund raised or donated to FF in any way upset that FF give 30K to Aherns mistress to buy a house? Or would anyone be upset at this if their own chosen party did it?

[Leo]

Can Irish people not set their own standards? It makes no difference who he is compared to. By my standards he is not fit for office.

I've missed the last few weeks for family reasons but this post brings us back to my question, who will shout stop?


Comparisons in various posts with other corrupt regimes debases our republican ethos and betrays the founding principles of the state.
Blaming FG and others for incompetence or reticence is a diversion.
Cheap political eye-for-eye is a cop out.

There is a cancer in the leading party in this state, it has been there since Haughey and it is as rampant and as depressing as ever. There are certain common factors (North Dublin, builders, planning, bags of money, deceased persons to blame, people too ill to give testimony, no paper records, unorthodox accounting, press manipulation, etc) and there are secrets - yet untold - but stored in places like Mayo.

Historically FF will always command 30-35% of the popular vote at a minimum because of the civil war politics that are taught from the cradle so its reelection with whatever colour of running mate happens to be fluttering in the breeze at any given time is practically a sure bet and is no comment on the national view of Bertie's morass at all. Therefore the imperative is to find someone with a scintilla of moral courage in that party to give the lead and say enough is enough.

Goodness knows there are those who were  foolish enough in the immediate aftermath of the Haughey scandal who actually believed Bertie when he promised a new dawn for Fianna Fail. But this is what is needed. I will vote according to policy, good government, moral leadership and probity, and that is all I ask of any serious politician from any party who will tell it like it is - but that is especially needed from FF.

To Brian Cowen, Noel Dempsey, Seamus Brennan and the like, I say - you know in your heart that at the end of the day all of this sh**t is going to come out in an appallingly dirty wash and your record in defending this nonesense with clever & obscure answers,  and smart-alec diversions will come back to haunt you, maybe not in party political terms, but in the damage being permanently afflicted on the Irish political system which you are allowing happen.

You are spawning the tornado - will you survive the damburst? It's not too late - sort this out. Our birthright demands it.

[Pangurban]

Cute hoorism,cunning strokes,and downright corruption have always been admired and tolerated in southern irish society. A corrupt people usually  elect a corrupt government. Their is not a hair of difference between FF and FG, the others are not worth mentioning. FF survive and prosper because at the end of the day, people recognise they are more competent and in tune with the nation than the Blueshirts. Simple really