The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[Mentalman]

We have to remember our place in Europe

Yep, as an equal member with the other 26.

we are one of the smallest countries in the Union and we must remember that

Feck that kowtowing, grovelling, colonial bs.

There has to be reform to get the Union working more freely for everyone in Europe

No one has yet even addressed what this treaty does that's such an improvement on our existing situation and that's what worries me. There's a certain "let's not talk about it and hope they sign it" type attitude amongst they cosy political cabal in this country. It needs to be sold to me, as a good european, and no one has done that thus far, nor even tried.

[Tankie]

Did anyone see this being discussed on Prime Time lastnight? It was very interesting and there are good and bad sides to this treaty but I think I will vote YES for sure now.

[stevo-08]

Did anyone see this being discussed on Prime Time lastnight? It was very interesting and there are good and bad sides to this treaty but I think I will vote YES for sure now.

Didnt see Prime Time but can you tell us what were the main arguments put forward which have convinced you to vote Yes.

[Tankie]

The main selling point for me was that it is required for the EU to function better as an enlarged entity. Also I like the idea of the EU having a Foreign minister that will speack for Europe on World issues, I am also very much in favour of European laws which will help fight criminality. A more open market is also a good thing.

I aint saying that I agree with every part of this but i am all for european nations working closer together on alot of issues. Also we keep control of our Taxation with a Veto so that is a major plus!

[Farrandeelin]

Why are the other countries not voting for it? Is it because all the other parliaments are afraid it will be rejected. People talk about democracy etc, but this is the most undemocratic treaty ince well the Nice Treaty when only a handful of countries voted for it. We were forced to vote twice. Sorry tankie, I am against the EU as one entity, we are grand as we are imo. The Dáil will become like a glorified local council then it seems...

[Tankie]

I can see your views but I aswell am againts a eurpean state and i bdo not believe that this will make it the case but it does need a constitution. I aint in the game to try and convince people but as i said i aint happy with all of it but in general i think it is a good thing.

[Louth Exile]

I aint saying that I agree with every part of this but i am all for european nations working closer together on alot of issues. Also we keep control of our Taxation with a Veto so that is a major plus!

Are you full sure of yourself on that one Tankie??

I am not a farmer and far from being a Sinn Fein supporter, but below is a piece taken from the Shinners website and it is the reason that I am currently going to vote no.


Lisbon Treaty will give Peter Mandelson more control over Irish Farming

Sharing the Irish Farmer Associations concern on the future of the Irish beef industry Sinn Féin TD Martin Ferris has noted that the Lisbon Treaty if ratified would significantly increase EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson's power to negotiate the future of the industry with no recourse for Irish farmers.
Deputy Ferris said, "I share the concerns of the Irish Farmers Association (IFA) regarding EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson's move to dilute trade barriers. However the IFA should consider the fact that the Lisbon Treaty will copper-fasten such policies if it comes into being.
"Farmers need to be aware that Article 2 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the European Commission 'exclusive competence' over international trade agreements. Article 10 of the Treaty makes 'the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade' a key aim of the EU. Article 188 states that decisions on international trade will be taken by qualified majority vote.
"These are three reasons alone why farmers should consider voting against the Lisbon Treaty in the forthcoming referendum.
"The Lisbon Treaty will empower the European Commission to accelerate its existing approach to international trade, as exampled by Peter Mandelson, regardless of the cost to Irish farmers.
"It will remove the ability of the Irish government to influence the detail of trade negotiations or block there outcome if they are not in our interest.
"In addition Article 9 of the Treaty removes Ireland's right to a European Commissioner for 5 out of every 15 years. This means that when the Commission is discussing the detail of such international trade negotiations there may not even be an Irish voice at the table.
"The IFA is absolutely right to be concerned at the actions of Peter Mandelson at WTO talks, however they should also be concerned with the significant increase in powers he will have if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified." ENDS

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/24895

I love a good bit of Irish Beef that has been reared to the highest standards, I am totally against anything that promotes the importing of cheap foreign sh**e which Mandelson is dying for the EU to do!

[Tankie]

that could be considered a negative alrite but i didnt see anywhere it said that we were going to be eating crap beef! sure i guess we'll see how it turns out on polling day but i'm still a Yes vote here.

[Pangurban]

Quote from Tankie....Also we keep control of our Taxation with a Veto so that is a major plus!.
A veto that is not worth the paper it is written on. Not my opinion, the opinion of the French and German finance Ministers, who have stated openly that under the new trading conditions created by the treaty, if a case were taken to the European Court, citing unfair trading advantage against a country operating a lower rate of corporation tax than its european partners, such a case would likely succeed. Under the terms of this treaty decisions will be made by qualified majority voting, procedures and finer points of law and protocol will be determined by the european court, smaller states even if they were stick together as a block, which is unlikely, will not have the power to lick a stamp.

[Tankie]

Quote from Tankie....Also we keep control of our Taxation with a Veto so that is a major plus!.
A veto that is not worth the paper it is written on. Not my opinion, the opinion of the French and German finance Ministers, who have stated openly that under the new trading conditions created by the treaty, if a case were taken to the European Court, citing unfair trading advantage against a country operating a lower rate of corporation tax than its european partners, such a case would likely succeed. Under the terms of this treaty decisions will be made by qualified majority voting, procedures and finer points of law and protocol will be determined by the european court, smaller states even if they were stick together as a block, which is unlikely, will not have the power to lick a stamp.

i think its called a Veto for a reason!!!!! they asked the EU president this question lastnite and he said Ireland hold onto their Veto on tax which means they cannot be bullied. look are the positives boys.

[Louth Exile]

Quote from Tankie....Also we keep control of our Taxation with a Veto so that is a major plus!.
A veto that is not worth the paper it is written on. Not my opinion, the opinion of the French and German finance Ministers, who have stated openly that under the new trading conditions created by the treaty, if a case were taken to the European Court, citing unfair trading advantage against a country operating a lower rate of corporation tax than its european partners, such a case would likely succeed. Under the terms of this treaty decisions will be made by qualified majority voting, procedures and finer points of law and protocol will be determined by the european court, smaller states even if they were stick together as a block, which is unlikely, will not have the power to lick a stamp.

i think its called a Veto for a reason!!!!! they asked the EU president this question lastnite and he said Ireland hold onto their Veto on tax which means they cannot be bullied. look are the positives boys.

I think you you pretty much believe anything you are fed Tankie, without question!!

[Tankie]

Quote from Tankie....Also we keep control of our Taxation with a Veto so that is a major plus!.
A veto that is not worth the paper it is written on. Not my opinion, the opinion of the French and German finance Ministers, who have stated openly that under the new trading conditions created by the treaty, if a case were taken to the European Court, citing unfair trading advantage against a country operating a lower rate of corporation tax than its european partners, such a case would likely succeed. Under the terms of this treaty decisions will be made by qualified majority voting, procedures and finer points of law and protocol will be determined by the european court, smaller states even if they were stick together as a block, which is unlikely, will not have the power to lick a stamp.

i think its called a Veto for a reason!!!!! they asked the EU president this question lastnite and he said Ireland hold onto their Veto on tax which means they cannot be bullied. look are the positives boys.

I think you you pretty much believe anything you are fed Tankie, without question!!

No I dont but things have to change for Europe to progress, its not just all about what we can get, we have to help other EU nations at some point. People for get that when we got everything from Europe others didnt and if markets are opened up to help other EU counties it is upto us to become more competitive in wages and productivity to remain at the top.

But lads i aint trying to convince anyone here to vote yes, all i'm saying is that i'm voting yes but if it gets rejected I guess thats democracy.

[Zapatista]

I'm am really sick of the scaremongering coming from the Yes side in the Lisbon Treaty. Ahern (the guy forced to resign against corruption allegations) has said it would be disastrous for Ireland to vote No. I wish someone would tell us why it would be disastrous. Perhaps it would be disastrous for Ahern as he would not get that big job he is holding out for. The No side could claim it would be disastrous to vote Yes  and leave it at that but they are actually saying it would be disastrous to vote Yes because....
I'm sick of it

[Tankie]

I'm am really sick of the scaremongering coming from the Yes side in the Lisbon Treaty. Ahern (the guy forced to resign against corruption allegations) has said it would be disastrous for Ireland to vote No. I wish someone would tell us why it would be disastrous. Perhaps it would be disastrous for Ahern as he would not get that big job he is holding out for. The No side could claim it would be disastrous to vote Yes  and leave it at that but they are actually saying it would be disastrous to vote Yes because....
I'm sick of it

I think he was saying it would be disastrous because of the amount of political friends we will lose in Europe as this is being passed by every other country in Europe.

[Louth Exile]

I'm am really sick of the scaremongering coming from the Yes side in the Lisbon Treaty. Ahern (the guy forced to resign against corruption allegations) has said it would be disastrous for Ireland to vote No. I wish someone would tell us why it would be disastrous. Perhaps it would be disastrous for Ahern as he would not get that big job he is holding out for. The No side could claim it would be disastrous to vote Yes  and leave it at that but they are actually saying it would be disastrous to vote Yes because....
I'm sick of it

Is the big job not gone at this stage? With him now being 'tainted' goods!

Got the leaflet through the letterbox this morning, that is supposed to explain what it is all about. Didn't have a chance to look at it, just looked to see who published it, The Department of Foreign Affairs. Given that it is produced by a govt dept is this an impartial document, or is going to try and sell the yes vote?