U21 Football Championship

[RedandGreenSniper]

Doherty only a minor also. We might lack forwards but there was some serious talent in backs and midfield. Campbell is a very good forward. I too was at the Leitrim game and yes they stank the place out but there was never a doubt about the exceptional individual ability of at least 7 players which is a good foundation for any team. Their no show against Down in AI final can only be explained by the management at that time. They did nt play. I would fancy them to reverse that result now. Of course we ll give the u21 management some credit but as regards Holmes and silverware -  well if your lucky enough to manage a good team there is always the possibility they will win something.
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Doherty isn't minor, he was underage last year but not this year. Agree there are some exceptional players on that team but Campbell is the only one in the forward line. Two excellent midfielders, Chris Barrett, Tom Cunniffe and possibly Ger Cafferkey and Donal Vaughan in defence. But it says all you need to know about the lack of attacking options when you see some of the players that got runs in attack. I don't think it would be fair to name but having seen them with their clubs you'd worry about the conveyor belt. Also the fact, as Maradona says, that D Kilcullen, Hanley and the O'Boyle brothers are gone from the attacking six of the minors of '05 is fairly cripling.
Against Down in '05 Mayo were outclassed all over the pitch, pure and simple. I really think they overreached themselves getting that far that year, producing their best game of the year in the quarter-final against Armagh and somehow sneaking past Kerry in the semi-final. Don't rate Holmes highly either (and I don't think he should be back in the senior set-up) but himself and Connelly have a good working relationship and have really done wonders with the Under 21's. Anyone that remembers 2006 will remember that they beat Tyrone (semi) and Cork (final) not because they were the better team (Tyrone played them off the park for large parts of the game) but because they played with a savage intensity and never gave up. Management has to take a fair amount of credit for that I think.

[Dinny Breen]

Kerry v Kildare - U21 All Ireland Final - Semple Stadium - Saturday May 3rd - 7pm.

Jaysus could they not play it on a Sunday?

Handy venue from a Kildare perspective, less than an hour from South Kildare, reckon we'll bring down between 10 - 15K with us, KM will the Kerry support travel?

Not a happy memories venue as Kerry ripped us apart there in the qualifiers in 2003, Eoin Brosnan scored one of the best goals I've ever seen that day..

[Barney]

that D Kilcullen, Hanley and the O'Boyle brothers are gone from the attacking six of the minors of '05 is fairly cripling

Kilcullen and Hanely would have been major additions to this team and probably would have swung the balance our way. The Kilcullen issue has to be addressed. He is a fine footballer who was given his senior wings last year. Maybe a year out will do him good but he should not be lost to the county set-up long-term.

As for the other two they were as effective as the Chuckle Brothers.

A Saturday final says all that needs to be said about the GAA's attitude to this competition. Play it and get it out of the way. Every year despite the obstacles put in its way there are fine games and future stars on show. There are no fixtures down for that Sunday. The game should have got the platform it deserved.

[moysider]

Doherty only a minor also. We might lack forwards but there was some serious talent in backs and midfield. Campbell is a very good forward. I too was at the Leitrim game and yes they stank the place out but there was never a doubt about the exceptional individual ability of at least 7 players which is a good foundation for any team. Their no show against Down in AI final can only be explained by the management at that time. They did nt play. I would fancy them to reverse that result now. Of course we ll give the u21 management some credit but as regards Holmes and silverware -  well if your lucky enough to manage a good team there is always the possibility they will win something.

Doherty isn't minor, he was underage last year but not this year. Agree there are some exceptional players on that team but Campbell is the only one in the forward line. Two excellent midfielders, Chris Barrett, Tom Cunniffe and possibly Ger Cafferkey and Donal Vaughan in defence. But it says all you need to know about the lack of attacking options when you see some of the players that got runs in attack. I don't think it would be fair to name but having seen them with their clubs you'd worry about the conveyor belt. Also the fact, as Maradona says, that D Kilcullen, Hanley and the O'Boyle brothers are gone from the attacking six of the minors of '05 is fairly cripling.
Against Down in '05 Mayo were outclassed all over the pitch, pure and simple. I really think they overreached themselves getting that far that year, producing their best game of the year in the quarter-final against Armagh and somehow sneaking past Kerry in the semi-final. Don't rate Holmes highly either (and I don't think he should be back in the senior set-up) but himself and Connelly have a good working relationship and have really done wonders with the Under 21's. Anyone that remembers 2006 will remember that they beat Tyrone (semi) and Cork (final) not because they were the better team (Tyrone played them off the park for large parts of the game) but because they played with a savage intensity and never gave up. Management has to take a fair amount of credit for that I think.
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1. The O Boyle brothers were never going to be around long term and doubtful if they would improve matters.

2  James Burke was a huge addition. Only played in final in 05 and then out of position.

3. Got to the Minor final in '05 on merit. Attended both Armagh and Kerry matches and were good enough value for our wins. Choked in final and made Down look good on the day rather than being outclassed. 6 months later 6 of them started and beat Cork in u21 all Ireland final. More than those Down lads achieved since.

4. Against Tyrone and Cork in 06 I thought over the course of the games we were the best team. We blew Tyrone away early and they rallied. One of the reasons they came back into it was we had a 2/3 weak half forward line and Tyrone got an advantage there.
We were the better team though.

5. County teams in Championship are always expected to play with a savage intensity and never give up - otherwise they should nt be there.

Senior All Ireland '96 Mayo dominated but Meath won. Did you ever hear a Meath man say they overachieved that year? Or should have been beat? Or were outclassed? Or any other underdog nonesense?

Our beloved County Secretary started coming out with this overachieving spin a few years ago for whatever reason. Dont think we hear that underdog nonsense in other counties.

We re a big football county with several strong clubs and lots of good players. We re seldom outclassed but we re often poorly prepared. We re usually much better than teams we beat and often better than teams than manage to beat us. As a rule we have in fact been underachieving at all levels.

[RedandGreenSniper]

that D Kilcullen, Hanley and the O'Boyle brothers are gone from the attacking six of the minors of '05 is fairly cripling

Kilcullen and Hanely would have been major additions to this team and probably would have swung the balance our way. The Kilcullen issue has to be addressed. He is a fine footballer who was given his senior wings last year. Maybe a year out will do him good but he should not be lost to the county set-up long-term.

As for the other two they were as effective as the Chuckle Brothers.

The Kilcullen thing has to be looked at again. Not sure if he has what it takes to make it at centre-half back for Mayo but he certainly has something to offer. Think you're being a bit harsh on the O'Boyle's. Don't think Ger would have made this Under 21 team but Ronan certainly has more to offer than Thady Gavin or Brian Gallagher imho

[RedandGreenSniper]

2  James Burke was a huge addition. Only played in final in 05 and then out of position.

I agree. He only played in the final in '05 though because he dropped out of the panel for the Leaving Cert. You'd have to think that training with a senior club like Ballymun rather than a Junior like Ardnaree has brought him on a lot.

3. Got to the Minor final in '05 on merit. Attended both Armagh and Kerry matches and were good enough value for our wins. Choked in final and made Down look good on the day rather than being outclassed. 6 months later 6 of them started and beat Cork in u21 all Ireland final. More than those Down lads achieved since.

Very good value for the win against Armagh, savage performance. Were lucky to be in the game against Kerry at half-time. Good second half fightback but Kerry missed a penalty and a couple of late point chances. Their fault I know but think we rode our luck. Five lads started the final against Cork but their quality is not in doubt. They are the players most likely to succeed at senior level, its the players around them where we are not terribly strong.

4. Against Tyrone and Cork in 06 I thought over the course of the games we were the best team. We blew Tyrone away early and they rallied. One of the reasons they came back into it was we had a 2/3 weak half forward line and Tyrone got an advantage there.
We were the better team though.

Great start against Tyrone but when they got a run on us I only saw one winner. Was very surprised Mayo took that game in extra-time but shows the resolve the team had. They battled like wild animals late on.

5. County teams in Championship are always expected to play with a savage intensity and never give up - otherwise they should nt be there.

I agree but some are capable of playing at a higher intensity than others. Its all relative to the game you are in. Too often Mayo teams haven't played with a savage intensity - the Under 21 winning team of 2006 were relentless in their quest to win. They were under serious pressure against both Tyrone and Cork but stood up and were counted. We don't see that often with Mayo team (we should but that's another matter). That's very noteworthy I think and a serious reflection on management's abilty to drive the players on - Connelly in particular.

Senior All Ireland '96 Mayo dominated but Meath won. Did you ever hear a Meath man say they overachieved that year? Or should have been beat? Or were outclassed? Or any other underdog nonesense?

Yes I did, knew a few Meath people who still can't believe how Mayo didn't win. Its all about a balanced view, knowing when ya where the best team, knowing when ya left it behind ya, when ya were lucky and when ya were outclassed.

Our beloved County Secretary started coming out with this overachieving spin a few years ago for whatever reason. Dont think we hear that underdog nonsense in other counties.
We re a big football county with several strong clubs and lots of good players. We re seldom outclassed but we re often poorly prepared. We re usually much better than teams we beat and often better than teams than manage to beat us. As a rule we have in fact been underachieving at all levels.

I agree he shouldn't be coming out with negative talk. Think he was talkin about 2006 senior All-Ireland. We didn't overachieve to get to the final imo - we would have overachieved if we beat Kerry which was never a runner. Think we should be more concerned with setting up proper structures for developing underage - we are probably behind Galway, Roscommon and even Leitrim in taking positive steps in that regard (setting the wheels in motion for proper dev squads I mean).
I don't think there are too many examples though of teams that have beaten us who we have been much better than. Galway and Derry last year we were outclassed both days. Kerry in 2006, don't need to say much there. Galway and Kerry in 05 we played poorly against Galway (worst Conn final in a while) and Kerry won without moving out of third gear.
We have definitely underachieved at Minor - no Conn title since 2001 ffs is a joke. Six out of the last eight Under 21 Conn titles is fair going though.

Bottom line we probably left the Kerry game behind us last Saturday but the mess over Campbell can explain a lot about the first half. Don't think management can take too much of the blame imho. The defeat was brought about by circumstances outside of everyone's control, bar the lad himself.

[moysider]

I could still pick a few bones Sniper but I ll move on  - except for one point!

I dont believe we were outclasssed  last year by either Galway or Derry. I think we can be grouped with those teams ability wise. The recent league games would support that view.We would be outclassed if we played Galway in hurling but hardly in football. Well beaten on both days last summer but venue and tactics were the deciding factors rather than any great gulf in class between the teams.
Our match - ups in defence v Galway allowed them to have a dream start and we lacked the necessary intensity to get back into it.
How many teams would fancy a trip to Celtic park for a qualifier? Even Kerry would be pushed to win there. We did nt do ourselves any favours by not having a plan for Paddy Bradley [ our attempt to deal with him was as hopeless as our attempt to deal with Donaghy the year before - at least we made a change there]. But it was hardly a class thing. Still believe we would have won if we had got home advantage.

[Mike Sheehy]

We re usually much better than teams we beat and often better than teams than manage to beat us.

I really think you should rephrase that as

"We re sometimes much better than teams we beat and sometimes better than teams than manage to beat us"

If you really meant it the way you originally phrased it then , frankly, you are delusional.

[moysider]

We re usually much better than teams we beat and often better than teams than manage to beat us.

I really think you should rephrase that as

"We re sometimes much better than teams we beat and sometimes better than teams than manage to beat us"

If you really meant it the way you originally phrased it then , frankly, you are delusional.

Yeah. I reckon you ve managed to nail the phrasing better than i did but you knew what I meant    Mind you i was talking about games during last 25 years and not the last 3 or 4.

[RedandGreenSniper]

I could still pick a few bones Sniper but I ll move on  - except for one point!

I dont believe we were outclasssed  last year by either Galway or Derry. I think we can be grouped with those teams ability wise. The recent league games would support that view.We would be outclassed if we played Galway in hurling but hardly in football. Well beaten on both days last summer but venue and tactics were the deciding factors rather than any great gulf in class between the teams.
Our match - ups in defence v Galway allowed them to have a dream start and we lacked the necessary intensity to get back into it.
How many teams would fancy a trip to Celtic park for a qualifier? Even Kerry would be pushed to win there. We did nt do ourselves any favours by not having a plan for Paddy Bradley [ our attempt to deal with him was as hopeless as our attempt to deal with Donaghy the year before - at least we made a change there]. But it was hardly a class thing. Still believe we would have won if we had got home advantage.

Ya ur right, we're not a level below them by any means. I should have said outplayed, not outclassed. My mistake 

[Maradona]

I would stay with outclassed in some respects....lets face it we have never produced a forward in the class of Bradely or Joyce in my opinion and that has always and always be our downfall, scoring ability, esp when games need to be won. Bradely absolutely outclassed our fb line last year, no other word for it. We are so reliant on Mortimer at the moment it is not funny.

We have always had a problem with producing top class forwards, and the few we had close to that level, they were not always available for one reason or other. Was never a big fam of M Moran, but I'll give him one thing, he was the only one to to get a forward division including Mortimer, McDonald, O'Neill and Dillion in the same game!!

[Dinny Breen]

The Central Competitions Control Committee has issued an eight-week ban to Down's Conor Garvey arising from an incident in last Saturday's All-Ireland under 21 football semi-final at Navan.

Video evidence was used by the CCCC to punish the Mourne County half back for an incident that left Kildare centre back and captain Gary Whyte nursing a sore neck. Garvey had already been issued with a yellow card by Galway referee Pat McGovern who consulted with the CCCC on the Whyte incident.

Good to see swift action taken, it was a dispicable act and 8 weeks is about right...

[Jinxy]

I'd forgotten about that incident what with all the Parnellgate hysteria. Glad to see the issue was dealt with. However, it's farcical that dropping your knee onto someones neck is met with the same penalty as a bit of pushing and shoving.

[Uladh]

Where can you view any suspensions handed down by the CCCC?

[moysider]

I would stay with outclassed in some respects....lets face it we have never produced a forward in the class of Bradely or Joyce in my opinion and that has always and always be our downfall, scoring ability, esp when games need to be won. Bradely absolutely outclassed our fb line last year, no other word for it. We are so reliant on Mortimer at the moment it is not funny.

We have always had a problem with producing top class forwards, and the few we had close to that level, they were not always available for one reason or other. Was never a big fam of M Moran, but I'll give him one thing, he was the only one to to get a forward division including Mortimer, McDonald, O'Neill and Dillion in the same game!!

Bradley roasted his marker that day. He often does. Does nt mean the whole Mayo team was outclassed. Declan Browne used usually roast his man. So does Mattie Forde.  Does it follow that Tipperary outclassed their opponents. Wexford are in division 3.

Joe Mcgrath was a top class forward. So were Seamas O Dowd, Joe Corcoran, Tom langan, Peter Solan, Mick Flanagan, Paddy Moclair and Gerald Courell. A few over the last 25 years were not bad either! Not being smart but having a good forward is largely a matter of good fortune as is any good footballer. No county ' produces' them. Down are going to find it difficult to produce a Blaney and Linden again in the same generation. Tyrone may well look back and wished they cloned Canavan, McGuigan and O Neill. The emergence of any good footballer anywhere is largely in the lap of the Gods. Its not that likes of the Gooch is discovered or groomed. They re naturals and it would take some idiot not to recognise what special talents they have.

You re right about M Moran.