Collingwood to play Dublin!!!!!

[western exile]

There's a guy involved with St Vincents in Dublin called Martin Kennedy  who worked in the Sports Science department with West Coast Eagles when they won the Championship in 2006. From what he has told me, the difference physically between the average GAA player and the average AFL player is night and die. He worked along with the likes of Chris Judd, Ben Cousins and Daniel Kerr on a daily basis and these guys were almost of national championship standard in some disciplines (eg 400m). Obviously no athlete is good at everything, some are strong, some fast, some have endurance, but in the cases of Judd and Cousins, their standards were exceptional in the majority of disciplines. The difference is simple. When the Aussie guy wakes up in the morning the only thought on his mind is being the best footballer he can be, when the average GAA players wakes up he has a good bit to get through before he can start becoming a better footballer, and while walking around a classroom drinking a bottle of water and making sure you are well hydrated is helpful, it is no where near as useful as doing the full time stuff the Aussies are doing.

Judd and Cousins are most certainly not examples of the average AFL player. They are the cream of the crop (well Cousins isn't anymore). Martin Clarke was the best runner at Collingwood as soon as he stepped off the plane. Brendan Murphy came 3rd in Sydneys time trial a few days after arriving. Begley is in Brisbanes top 2/3 runners. One of the big differences is in standardised fitness testing, i.e. VO2 max, vertical leap, beep tests etc. In most cases intercounty players don't undergo these tests whereas AFL players would do them during preseason and maybe at other intervals during the year. This gives them something to compare with other athletic disciplines. And like  anything that is done with any degree of frequency, they get better at doing them, i.e. they maximise their potential. I seem to be in the minority as I think athletically there isn't a massive difference, and indeed many of the AFL fans would recognise that their Irish recruits are among their best for athletic ability. Preparation is where the biggest difference is i.e. periodised training programmes, nutrition, recovery etc. I would certainly say that AFL players are far better at maximising their potential as athletes, but I don't think they are that much better in terms of sheer ability.

If you are in a minority, there is at least two of us there.    I agree with you 100%

[Denn Forever]

What is in it for Dublin?  Training fund for season?  I think IR is dead.  Leave it there.

[Hardy]

I don't think it's dead enough. All this guff about Dublin vs. Collywobbles and meetings in Dubai and the like make me fearful it's going to do a Christopher Lee. A stake through the heart is what's needed.

[irunthev]

There's a guy involved with St Vincents in Dublin called Martin Kennedy  who worked in the Sports Science department with West Coast Eagles when they won the Championship in 2006. From what he has told me, the difference physically between the average GAA player and the average AFL player is night and die. He worked along with the likes of Chris Judd, Ben Cousins and Daniel Kerr on a daily basis and these guys were almost of national championship standard in some disciplines (eg 400m). Obviously no athlete is good at everything, some are strong, some fast, some have endurance, but in the cases of Judd and Cousins, their standards were exceptional in the majority of disciplines. The difference is simple. When the Aussie guy wakes up in the morning the only thought on his mind is being the best footballer he can be, when the average GAA players wakes up he has a good bit to get through before he can start becoming a better footballer, and while walking around a classroom drinking a bottle of water and making sure you are well hydrated is helpful, it is no where near as useful as doing the full time stuff the Aussies are doing.

Judd and Cousins are most certainly not examples of the average AFL player. They are the cream of the crop (well Cousins isn't anymore). Martin Clarke was the best runner at Collingwood as soon as he stepped off the plane. Brendan Murphy came 3rd in Sydneys time trial a few days after arriving. Begley is in Brisbanes top 2/3 runners. One of the big differences is in standardised fitness testing, i.e. VO2 max, vertical leap, beep tests etc. In most cases intercounty players don't undergo these tests whereas AFL players would do them during preseason and maybe at other intervals during the year. This gives them something to compare with other athletic disciplines. And like  anything that is done with any degree of frequency, they get better at doing them, i.e. they maximise their potential. I seem to be in the minority as I think athletically there isn't a massive difference, and indeed many of the AFL fans would recognise that their Irish recruits are among their best for athletic ability. Preparation is where the biggest difference is i.e. periodised training programmes, nutrition, recovery etc. I would certainly say that AFL players are far better at maximising their potential as athletes, but I don't think they are that much better in terms of sheer ability.

If you are in a minority, there is at least two of us there.    I agree with you 100%

You're not wrong to a point and I agree that Judd and Cousins are exceptional athletes. But at the same time, no Irish player can hope to match these guys for fitness when they train at best four times a week or so. The range, volume and variety of training the Aussie guys do is impressive and there is also the point that a lot of the Irish guys who go over, while being very good at running, would then me told that they had 10kg or more to put on in order to be able to have a chance of surviving and as you know yourself, we aren't talking about going down to Burger King and stuffing your face, its 10 kg of muscle.

I'm not belittling the Irish guys at all and certainly the fitness levels now are incredible and will continue to be improved as the science gets even more intricate, but at the same time, you have to acknowledge that a well trained and well managed full time athlete is going to be a more powerful beast than the part timer. You only have to compare the footage of county football in 1985 to the present day to see the changes that advancements in training methods can make to the physique of players and while the differences are reduced greatly as you progress up the fitness chain, there will still be differences.

Tadgh said that Marty Clarke was lucky because he was a good runner and quite small so his centre of gravity and balance helped, but there is only room for so many of those guys on any footie team. I have spoken To Begley myself and he acknowledged that the running bit came natural to him and that the power bit was the big challenge for him. In fairness to them all they have all made tremendous strides, but you also have to appreciate the struggle that someone like Setanta had trying to get up to a fighting weight.
There mightn't be a huge difference, but there is a still a difference.
As for the fitness testing, well it would be a very poorly prepared county team that weren't tested at last 3 times a year.
Even London last year had four fitness tests conducted by the sports science department at Brunel University so, if London are doing it, you would expect everyone else to be as well.

[Jinxy]

It all depends what your definition of fitness is. Aerobically at least, Clake, Begley and Murphy were more than a match for their aussie counterparts as soon as they stepped off the plane. I agree that they would be appreciably less physically developed but to my mind its easier to put muscle on a lad than it is to give him a rolls royce engine.

[ykickamoocow]

Murphy was told afew months ago that before he can play AFL he has to put on 10kg as he is too thin at the moment to survive at a AFL level. Also look at Martin Clarke from when he left Ireland to now, he is alot stronger now than he was afew years ago.

[BallyhaiseMan]

I love these threads about Sports Science and Fitness in the GAA and the AFL.   Good knowledge about it on this board by certain posters and its very interesting.

[Jinxy]

Murphy was told afew months ago that before he can play AFL he has to put on 10kg as he is too thin at the moment to survive at a AFL level. Also look at Martin Clarke from when he left Ireland to now, he is alot stronger now than he was afew years ago.

Too thin to survive as a key position forward, which is what he is being groomed for. KP players are in the 6' 4" plus, 95-100kg bracket. Very specific physical requirements.

[sligeach]

Maybe my memory is a bit ...dodgy but didn't Eamon O'Hara and whatever teammates he had that time stick it up to them ?

I remember Eamon getting a punch by a guy a foot or so bigger then him and smiling at him aferwards.

[Aerlik]

Judd and Cousins are most certainly not examples of the average AFL player. They are the cream of the crop (well Cousins isn't anymore).

If you are in a minority, there is at least two of us there.    I agree with you 100%
[/quote]

You're not wrong to a point and I agree that Judd and Cousins are exceptional athletes.

[/quote]

WRONG WRONG WRRRRRRONNNNNNNNNNNNNNG

Ben Cousins should never be compared to Chris Judd who I have seen play many times.    Firstly, Cousins is a DRUG CHEAT, read Marion Jones, Michelle Smith etc.  He was on heavy duty crap for some time and was caught.  He was a running machine for sure, but if you can tweak any engine it'll perform "better". 

Secondly, Cousins was a ball taker, but rarely if ever a ball winner.  He would always hang off the pack and wait for  the ball to be given to him.  This was evidenced during last season's second derby when the Dockers' Josh Carr tagged him and he hardly got a touch.  As a consequence Carr got the MotM award.  And then the WCE starting bleating about taggers spoiling the game.  Jayzus H. Kristos, there was no condemnation of the drug cheats who were winning Brownlow medals and premierships only the designated markers employed to stop them.   

Judd is a hard ball winner.  He'll get stuck in and will use his speed to get though and out of the pack.  Kerr was almost always the main supplier to Cousins. In his much vaunted "comeback game" last season there was so much shite in the WA media about the prodigal son returning and he ended up with a bucketful of possessions.  I can't honestly recall one of them being for a 50-50 ball on the ground or the air.

So please lads, never compare Cousins and Judd.  Chalk and cheese.

[Jinxy]

They are being compared athletically, not as players.

[Aerlik]

They are being compared athletically, not as players.

And that is precisely what I am saying:  Cousins got to where he is by being speedy on the speedy! 

[hitzelsperger]

aerlik your views are most definately those of a docker fan    i agree cousins was a socialite but everyone knows he was one hell of a player, but was only a matter of time until he got found out. how he carried on so long with chemicals in his blood is beyond me! i think his mate on the social scene daniellchick was also too fond of the nose candy thats why he got the road..by all accounts the afl drug testing procedure is way off the standard and im sure there'll be a few more cheats caught in the near future.

Judd needs no intro, the superstar of the game who when he takes a ball on the burst leaving players in his wake it is unreal to watch and now the eagles have lost him this season is going to be a tough one for the eagles. will be interesting how he recovers from his long term injury! kerr is also an excitement machine, busts his balls every single game, hard as nails and at his best untouchable, he'll be fighting an uphill battle in the eagles midfield this year after the loss of the 2 superstars n the engine room..

[Aerlik]

aerlik your views are most definately those of a docker fan    i agree cousins was a socialite but everyone knows he was one hell of a player, but was only a matter of time until he got found out. how he carried on so long with chemicals in his blood is beyond me! i think his mate on the social scene daniellchick was also too fond of the nose candy thats why he got the road..by all accounts the afl drug testing procedure is way off the standard and im sure there'll be a few more cheats caught in the near future.

Judd needs no intro, the superstar of the game who when he takes a ball on the burst leaving players in his wake it is unreal to watch and now the eagles have lost him this season is going to be a tough one for the eagles. will be interesting how he recovers from his long term injury! kerr is also an excitement machine, busts his balls every single game, hard as nails and at his best untouchable, he'll be fighting an uphill battle in the eagles midfield this year after the loss of the 2 superstars n the engine room..

Not just the opinions of a very blinkered-when-playing-the-toilet-boys Dockers fan, Hitzelsperger.  Damnit I'm even finding myself on  the same side of the fence as Collingwood fans (

I am of the belief that Cousins was not the super athlete everyone claimed him to be.  He had been using drugs for a number of years and the Eagles knew it.  Just look at his physique.  I was a derby a couple of years ago and when he walked down the tunnel it was patently obvious he had an unhealthily low body fat index.  Of course all the Perth babes drooled over him but I wonder what they think now that they know he got his physique through illegal substances.  It'll be interesting to see how he goes in Anthony Mundane's boxing show.

Jeff Farmer has got so much grief from the media (some justified most not) yet we don't hear much of Chick's wife-battering conviction, Kerr's little exploits etc

[Jinxy]

They are being compared athletically, not as players.

And that is precisely what I am saying:  Cousins got to where he is by being speedy on the speedy! 

So exactly which ergogenic substances are you attributing his athletic ability to?