Meeting of Grassroots to Discuss our Strategy re GPA

[Bogball XV]

Max, I'll say it again, I would be completely shocked if the govt were to continue funding this on an ongoing basis - at best they might cut gaa capital grants by an amount equal to the amount paid out in this scheme.  What happens in 3 years time, when players say that inflationary increases are needed etc - one way or the other, the gaa will end up paying, be that directly or via clubs missing out on grant aid.

You're probably right ONeill, however I'm worried by this meeting and the motions being passed at various conventions, I think that they will force a vote at congress, and I think the grants proposal wouldn't have a hope in hell of going through, that then leaves us on a massive collission course with the GPA just as the championship is about to kick off.  Call me Neville, but I like a bit of appeasement if at all possible!

Sorry bogball but that's pathetic.  Dig your head in the sand there, O'Neill will keep you in company.  I think it would be fantastic if a vote was forced in congress and the Grants were opposed - not just because I'm against them but also because it would would be a massive victory for democracy in the organisation. 

i know pints, just I'd rather get this whole thing sorted out now, when we've only got the McKenna cup etc to deal with, the pressure will be ramped up massively come April, both sides will become more embittered and we could have an irreconcileable split - rugby union and rugby league went their separate ways 100 odd years ago over this issue.

[pintsofguinness]

bogball

i know pints, just I'd rather get this whole thing sorted out now, when we've only got the McKenna cup etc to deal with, the pressure will be ramped up massively come April, both sides will become more embittered and we could have an irreconcileable split - rugby union and rugby league went their separate ways 100 odd years ago over this issue.

We'd a chance to sort it last week and we chickened out. 
If we've to face them down on the eve of the championship than so be it - anything is better than forcing through something that membership disagrees with. 

btw, I'd love to see how long Dessie and co would last on their own.

[ONeill]

In 2003, 3 months after the All-Ireland final I met an Armagh player in a bar in Belfast. I was working for a publication. I asked him for an interview concerning that final. He said £150. Should I shop on him too?

Sure if we stuck to the original GAA rulebook, we'd have no GAA players playing other sports or even attending them. I'm sure they'll change rules again to suit purposes - that may delay the releasing of funds to county boards or even dictate how they are used.

[darbyo]

You know what O'Neill, we have hit common ground. You might not agree with I have to say next, but we will see. What I would have like to see the GPA do is put pressure on the GAA to reduce the commitment, reduce the number of games, reduce the number of training sessions and in general their commitment to the county. Give back to the clubs.

This idea is a complete non-runner and I can't for the life of me see how fellas reckon that this could or infact should be implemented.

1. Do players deserve payment because of the effort they put in?

2. Do players deserve payment because of the revenue they generate?

3. Do players deserve payment because of the level of public scrutiny they face?

I don't think that GAA players necessarily deserve this grant visa vis all other athletes but I have no problem with them getting it. As a club player, coach and administrator I have no problem with them getting this grant while I don't. I know plenty of lads who (in terms of time and effort) deserve a grant as much as any inter county player, but I don't think IC lads should be loosing sleep over this.

[Bogball XV]

I think almost everyone (including Pat Darcy) will agree that the spirit of Rule 11 has been broken many times, through clubs paying for coaches, players making appearances at functions etc. What I am saying is could someone use it to block the grants scheme? Pat Darcy says it would do so, but would anyone possibly have a case?

I think it is fair to point out, as some on both sides of the fence have commented, is that have we, as members of the Association created a monster and only now do some in it see it as a step too far? It isn't simply black or white, but how many shades of grey we can use or tolerate? Has this issue forced members to look more deeply about the role of the Association, and our role within it? I've said now for some time that the GAA rulebook as it stands should be completely rewritten and made legally watertight. Is the cute-hoorism and wink-nod being allowed to bend the rules without notice or much care? Are frustrations over decision making and interpretation taking members to court and lately the DRA over the association. Whatever the outcome of this matter over grants/pay-for-play/whatever you want to call it, now should be the time to see how the Association can deal with itself for the future once and for all.

If the rule is used to block grants, all dessie has to do is highlight the many, many instances of hypocrisy he has encountered.

[Hardy]

O'Neill, the moment is somewhat lost now - two or three pages intervene, but I can't allow you to use my argument as a spurious prop for your own opposite one. I said:

You say if we were inter-county players we might feel differently. I'm certain you're right and I wouldn't claim to be selfless enough to turn down money for playing if it was offered to me. But that wouldn't make me right.

You said: 
"I found that mind-boggling. His premise is that only those who don't play football at that level are capable of contributing to the debate, that it's the supporters/lesser-lights who can make a valued judgement. That's plain crazy and demeans inter-county players to a sub-species of greedy dimwits with no honorable interest in the future of our games. And we all pay 20-40 quid to watch these imbeciles?"

Of course my premise means nothing of the sort. Show me where my statement says or even implies that "ONLY" non inter-county players are capable of contributing to the debate.

What my statement means is that the input of the sole beneficiaries should not be the only one considered in a debate on an issue that affects the association so profoundly. If you want to decide whether to abolish Christmas (and don't laugh – apparently some people do) you don't weigh the opinion of the turkeys more heavily than that of the millions who believe we should keep Christmas. In fact, you might lean the other way and consider the tiny possibility that the turkeys have a vested interest.

Remember it was you, not me, who brought up the suggestion that county players would have a different view. I was only responding to that. And, as I said, if I was an inter-county player I might vote for pay for play. But that wouldn't make me right. What would make the decision right would be that it was made by the entire electorate – if we ever get a vote on the issue – and not by the only people who stand to gain from it.

[ONeill]

So Hardy, you oppose the deal because it was the GPA who invented it, lobbied and pushed it through? You might actually agree with it in principle though?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you're 100% anti-GPA but not totally anti-grant.

[tyrone86]

What I'm saying is, we want the highest standards from our players but we don't want their county boards to receive govn money to distribute as they see fit as it might lead to bigger demands. I understand the annoyance at the GPA. I don't particularly like them, their approach and I think Farrell is a disaster in terms of PR and leadership. However, I think their premise is correct and until we address what we expect from county players, we haven't a moral leg to stand on. We won't back down though on our expectations. That simply doesn't happen in sport. We are hypocrites.

Whatever about the few paragraphs before it, that sir is nail on head.

[Red Hand Luke]

Join us............

www.ofonebelief.org/

[Red Hand Luke]

NIOCLÁS Ó BRAONÁIN, UACHTARÁN C.L.G. – Sat Apr 22, 2006

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Player Welfare / GPA
Much has been written and articulated about the issue of player welfare in recent weeks and there have been considerable efforts to portray me as some kind of unaware, uncaring and maybe even incapable individual. I stated last year when I was elected Uachtarán-Tofa that I would not make statements or get involved in the core issues of the Association until I took over from Sean Ó Ceallaigh at today's Congress. I did this in the tradition of the Association and in accordance with the protocol, practise, responsibility and behaviour expected of a President-Elect. I now wish to set the record straight on a few issues.

The GPA has been in existence for about seven years. The issue of player welfare has been addressed, before and during that period to a fair degree, if at varying levels and with some inconsistencies and tardiness. One of my predecessors, Sean McCague, appointed a Players Advisory Group and a Task Force to examine and recommend on players welfare issues. The recommendations of that Task Force were introduced by Sean Ó Ceallaigh to Central Council at his first Council meeting and were adopted by the Council. The Sean McCague initiative produced a generous and enlightened package, which effectively gave players equal and even superior tangible benefits than any voluntary official. The evolving scenario however demanded a more holistic and comprehensive approach and this has not been addressed. It also required a system and structure which would ensure that no county was remiss, neglectful or insensitive in player welfare issues or the implementation of measures approved.

Much has been made of the grants issue and the GPA. My unwillingness to attend any meeting until I had formally assumed the position of Uachtarán appears to have become the central issue. The truth and reality is somewhat different to that portrayed. The motion from the Players Representative was put on the agenda for Central Council at it's meeting of 25th February. That motion sought Central Council's support for the GPA's grant application to the Government. It transpired at the Coiste Bainistí meeting on the morning of the Central Council meeting that the considerations of Central Council had been pre-empted and that the Uachtarán had already agreed to meet with the Minister with the GPA.

Like the members of Coiste Bainistí and Central Council, the first I knew of a meeting having been arranged with the Minister for Sport was on the day of the Central Council meeting. In an issue of potential fundamental consequences for the Association, I was not in a position, nor did I think it prudent that any other G.A.A. Official should approach the Minister until I could appraise myself fully with all the issues involved and until such time as I could be guided by our counties through Central Council. Coiste Bainistí supported this view, as indeed did Central Council. The motion in respect of Government Grants was withdrawn at Central Council and the meeting with the Minster was, insofar as I am concerned, taken off the agenda in terms of the 8th March at least. I was therefore surprised that it became an issue and that the facts and Central Council's decision were distorted and blurred by either misunderstanding or expedient agenda.

It is indeed likely that the GPA may have been under a false illusion that Central Council had previously endorsed the concept of Government Grants for Players. The records show that this never happened. Perhaps the GPA was under the impression that this was a simple issue for Central Council to rubber stamp? The reality is that this issue requires the collective decision of the Association through Central Council following consideration and debate, particularly at county level.

I was not in a position, for the reasons I have stated, to address the issues or fill any vacuum that existed in the last few weeks. However, I do not think that anybody could accuse me of being divorced from, or insensitive to player's issues. I have played and managed at all levels in both codes and I have served in a multitude of administrative positions in our Association. I intend using that experience to address player issues in a way that is meaningful and which will benefit players, not just in this generation but in future generations. To do this, player welfare initiatives must be fair and equitable and must reconcile with the policies, structures and well-being of our Association. I am confident that these aims and aspirations can be achieved.

As already stated, I know that genuine player issues have not received the priority they should have in the recent past. I know that there have been incidents which are unacceptable and that some counties have failed to meet their obligations in the implementation and application of agreed measures and guidelines. That will change, I can assure you, as player welfare matters will be a priority during my Presidency.

I want to make one matter quite clear today though, lest there be any misunderstanding or ambiguity on anyone's part. Since the GPA was launched the notion of pay-for-play has been on their agenda. Despite recent comments from some of their officials, I am of the view that this remains the ultimate aim of the GPA in some form or other. Our Association was fostered, nurtured and developed on the basis of its amateur status and the incredible work of our thousands of loyal volunteers. Its future survival and continued progress cannot be assured unless these core aspects of our charter are maintained. Pay-for-play of any kind will not be entertained or even discussed by me during the next three years, and I know that the vast majority of our stakeholders agree with this view.

Despite the significant spend on today's inter-county players (€24M in 2005, including Player's Injury Scheme payments), we must and will address player welfare issues in a more progressive manner in the future. The following are just some of the initiatives I wish to announce today:

Shortly after this Congress we will set about recruiting a Player Welfare Manager based in Croke Park. Some of his key areas of responsibility will be:
Auditing of County Boards to ensure compliance with the Player Welfare procedures approved by Árd Comhairle
Be a direct contact for any player whose injury claim payment is being unduly delayed
Meet with any player (when requested) who has suffered a particularly serious injury to ensure an appropriate care and rehabilitation programme has been put in place
Delivery of education programmes on all aspects of player medical welfare (including drugs testing and associated issues) in association with an expanded G.A.A. Medical Committee
The incoming Insurance Work Group will be asked to review the current Player's Injury Scheme to see how benefits might be improved
We have set aside €1M (initially) in our 2006 budget to cater for what is termed "hardship cases". Former players as well as current players (club or county) may apply via their County Board for access to this fund and a Medical/G.A.A. panel will be established to initially define the criteria for accessing the fund and thereafter to adjudicate on the merits of each application
An expanded Medical Committee will work closely with the G.A.A. to offer advice on the medical welfare of our players. Some of those areas will be:
Design and implementation of high quality modern injury surveillance, injury prevention and rehabilitation programmes
Coordination of injury and rehabilitation research projects in sports and exercise medicine and science
Ensuring Irish Sports Council anti-doping and drug testing policies are implemented and properly supervised, including the provision of advice to Players, Team Mentors & Officials, including Medical personnel
Evaluation and implementation of evidence-based medical screening programmes
Prevention of over-training syndromes and over-use injuries, particularly relating to young players
Prevention of premature injuries and degeneration using adequate injury rehabilitation and recovery programmes
Education of GAA team doctors and allied medical personnel with regular updating of information regarding medical matters
Árd Comhairle will undertake a review of current policies relating to the provision of various resources to players
Greater use will be made of players to market aspects of our Association's affairs
I am asking Comhairle Árd Oideachais to submit proposals to Coiste Bainistí relating to the provision of bursaries to Third Level Colleges
We will offer inter-county players a training course to build their self confidence in dealing with the media and to avail of personal appearances for on-going commercial opportunities.

The above should be seen as a serious commitment by the G.A.A. to address player welfare. I expect other issues will emerge in the future and we will be responsible and generous in how we will look after all our players and the respect we will show them.

Use of Croke Park
The use of Croke Park by other sporting bodies in 2007 remains a very emotive issue for many of our members. I supported the temporary relaxation of Rule 42 last year and remain satisfied that this decision was in the best interests of our Association and our country. However, I recognise that many members were hurt and upset at the decision and subsequent comments by some people showed a scant understanding of these people's feelings on the matter and were unhelpful. Right now our contract with the other two sporting bodies is only for 2007. When we sit down to negotiate for the use of Croke Park beyond 2007 I will expect to see clear tangible evidence that the planning process relating to Lansdowne Road is making progress. The decision to set aside Rule 42 during the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road was on the understanding that planning permission would be secured at some stage in 2006 and building work would commence in 2007. That may well happen, but recent reports make me seriously concerned at possible delays in the planning process. Árd Comhairle will be kept fully briefed on the matter and I will ensure that this matter is continually monitored. I remain strongly committed to honouring the decision of last year's Congress, but if circumstances change which are not of our making, then the matter will have to be reviewed by you, if necessary.

Finance & Governance
I recognise that the growing cost of running County Boards is placing enormous difficulties on the shoulders of many voluntary Officials. Balancing the books is a constant challenge, so the need for proper budgeting and financial control is essential. I have instructed the incoming Financial Management Committee to insist that each County Unit submits an annual budget by the end of January each year and their annual accounts by the end of December each year. Financial assistance will only be paid on receipt of this information. It is no longer acceptable that County Boards spend beyond their resources, so increased vigilance can be expected from the Financial Management Committee in the years ahead.

The G.A.A. National Audit Committee will formally commence work in the coming months. It purpose will be:

To ensure the integrity of the Association's financial reports and statements
To ensure the Association's compliance with legal and regulatory financial requirements
To evaluate the independent public accountant's qualifications and independence
To ensure the establishment and oversight of an internal audit function
The work of this committee will be invaluable in establishing proper controls and procedures at all levels of our Association. Compliance with their recommendations will not be an option.

[Drumanee 1]

those who believe these grants will have no long term effect on the gaa are seriously deluded or niave,i can tell you now if these grants go through which looks likely you can mark the date and look back and say that was the day the gaa died as we no it.

[BennyHarp]

Having read most of posts on here over the past few days / weeks with regards to the issue of grants, I honestly feel my position has changed from that of the anti government grants to Pro! My reason being, i get the impression alot of people are far to much concerned with the "what other people do or get!" situation. I know its only human nature to make comparisons between groups of people and i've read all sorts of comparisons on here from comparing the intercounty players to rowers, women playing football, people who cut the grass, club players, supporters even, but I would look at the issue on ITS OWN MERITS!

Does anyone here actually begrudge the lads who devote a fair majority of their time to the county team that supplies us with so much enjoyment, passion, debate and controversy. Do they deserve a little bit more for the abuse they get when they play poorly or the stick they take from opposition fans! Do they deserve a bit more for attracting 80,000 to croke park and selling hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of tickets? I for one hold the players from my own county in particularly high esteem and do not begrudge them a grant PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT. OK you say, they are amateur and can choose to walk away and not play - Consider if Sean Cavanagh, Gooch, Stevie McDonnell or Matty Forde decided that they just couldnt be bothered playing intercounty football anymore - i'm sure they would get a really warm welcome as they walked the streets of their counties in the lead up to championship time! Look at the reaction to the players when the strike was announced - what gives anyone the right to criticise an amateur player for withdrawing his services - Instead of calling it a strike, would it have been ok if they just said they couldnt be bothered playing anymore?  Its not as easy as it looks to walk away, so i would suggest that they dont have the choice - especially the top players.

The argument that there are hundreds of people who are prepared to pull on the jersey to represent their county is a weak one too. People may be prepared to do so, but are they prepared to put in the full time effort required - i know personally of numerous players who are county standard but didnt have the dedication required! Its a special breed that makes a top class county player! Why not reward this?

People complain about those who will get the grant and don't deserve it - the mayo hurlers consistently mentioned! I think people who are fighting to keep a sport alive in an area where it is struggling are probably just as much if not more derserving for a grant as someone who is a star in a county where football is king! I can't imagine there are hundreds of replacements lining up to replace Tyrone or mayo hurlers!!! Are people happy to the see the hurling teams of these counties disband? Are these people not equally contributing to Irish society? Or does anybody really care as long as we have something to criticise, rise up against and make doomsday predictions against!

[behind the wire]

i dont think there is any need for a ONE BELIEF association or anything like that, what i do think there is a need for is a return to traditional gaa values and observance of the written rules of the association:

yes the association has to move with the times, that must be embraced. but ireland does not have the population to sustain professional sport. we are surrounded by evidence of that. the gaa has thrived and will continue to thrive because it is amateur - all members are equal.

1) players play for the love of the game, nothing else. if playing starts to become a hinderence then dont play. amateur ethos should be emphasised.

players may be at a financial detriment due to playing gaelic games ie they could be working while they are training. but there are alot of people at at a detriment financially who are not players and get nowhere near the benefits that an intercounty player gets. (every club has at least one member like this)

2) managers should not be paid. it must be accepted by the gaa hierarchy that there is a problem in this respect and that it needs to be rectified.

3) if inter county players feel that the gaa is taking in too much money from the games they play in that may well be a fair point. but the answer here is to lower prices for the ordinary member or to redirect more and more money into local clubs. paying the players should be the last thing on their minds.

[NAG]

Quote from: NAG on December 04, 2007, 04:06:49 PM

Call it a grant or bursary it is infact pay for play.



You are stupid...it is not play for play. It is only pay when the directors you play for pay you that it will become pay. When have you ever gotten paid by some other organisation that you don't work for, that is why it is not play and why Croke park is not paying a grant to the players...its THE GOVERNMENT.....    why is it the posters keep changing the facts


MAXIMUS

sorry for the late reply but I dont get to check here everyday.

But I have to say that it is you who are being stupid and niave, if you dont play intercounty football or hurling you dont get the money therefore you dont get paid. This is the thin end of the wedge, how long is it before someone of our stars says thats not enough for me I need more to cover my costs?

Then as this progresses logically with money involved for playing intercounty football or hurling, what happens when these players are needed for an important club match with a county match coming up, do the county protect their financial investment (as the goverment wont fund this forever) and ban the player from playing?

The GPA has opened a can of worms and they havent a clue what to do. The pound signs were flashing infront of the leaderships eyes and they forgot where they have come from.

Look you can call me stupid or whatever you like but I have my eyes open to this situation and can see what is down the road for us all, dont try to tell me any different or negate my arguement with tired over hashed rhetoric spued from the mouth of Dessie.

THIS IS PAY FOR PLAY - 20 EURO A WEEK AND THEY HAVE SOLD THEIR SOULS

[behind the wire]

Does anyone here actually begrudge the lads who devote a fair majority of their time to the county team that supplies us with so much enjoyment, passion, debate and controversy. Do they deserve a little bit more for the abuse they get when they play poorly or the stick they take from opposition fans! Do they deserve a bit more for attracting 80,000 to croke park and selling hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of tickets? I for one hold the players from my own county in particularly high esteem and do not begrudge them a grant PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT. OK you say, they are amateur and can choose to walk away and not play - Consider if Sean Cavanagh, Gooch, Stevie McDonnell or Matty Forde decided that they just couldnt be bothered playing intercounty football anymore - i'm sure they would get a really warm welcome as they walked the streets of their counties in the lead up to championship time! Look at the reaction to the players when the strike was announced - what gives anyone the right to criticise an amateur player for withdrawing his services - Instead of calling it a strike, would it have been ok if they just said they couldnt be bothered playing anymore?  Its not as easy as it looks to walk away, so i would suggest that they dont have the choice - especially the top players.

if any amateur player chose to walk away for work or family reasons no matter what their profile in the game may be no one will have any problem with that. it has happened in tyrone with shane sweeney and mickey coleman, it happened in down with callum king. do you really think that 2000euro is going to keep all these people playing. no. they play because they love and enjoy it. and if it becomes too much they will still walk away whether they are receiving 2000 euro or not.


Players are scrutinised like professionals. that is true. it is also WRONG! the gaa must see that this problem is rectified. the answer is not to make the players professionals, the answer is to end the sort of scrutiny we see from brolly etc.