Paying Managers and Hypocrisy

[his holiness nb]

No problem with breaking the rules of the GAA?

[passedit]

Also worth bearing in mind that a huge proportion of people opposing the grants have no involvement with payment towards managers are are therefore not being hypocritical at all.

Is there a huge proportion against them? I've spoken to a good number of people and few are strongly against them, and a good few support it. I'd also like to know what people think all this might achieve. Could it, for example, make players more militant and end up causing a lot more problems than it is solving. Student grants, under the counter payments, administrative wages, would all have to be reviewed (esp. the first two). If there is a battle to be fought for amateurism in the GAA, this isn't. I think the 'grassroots' maybe creating a crisis rather than reacting to one.

You've misunderstood my post. I'm not saying theres a huge proportion against the grants, I dont know what way its split.
I'm saying a huge proportion of the people who are against it, have no involvement with payment of managers.

Also re Passedits comments about people who play under played managers etc, bear in mind I'm sure they wont be shouting from the rooftops that they are paying the manager as its against the rules, therefore there could well be people playing under these managers while not knowing it.


The list of hypocrits reduces further.

For those of you unsure of the remunerative status of your club's manager here's a quick rule of thumb.

Q Is he a registered member of your club?
A No

He will in 99% of the cases be receiving 'expenses'.

I have deliberately used quotation marks because unless the 'expenses' paid are fully vouchered they are classed as payment.

Ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law, there are none so blind as those who will not see etc etc.

[darbyo]

I like many others probably break the speed limits while on a journey of more than 5 miles. That doesn't mean that I have no regard for the laws of the land. If a club hasn't got a quality manager amongst it's own membership and is willing to pay a guy to do the job, then that is alright by me. If it is my club and we pay a guy who puts in a lot of time and effort, then I can live with that.

[his holiness nb]

status of your club's manager here's a quick rule of thumb.

Q Is he a registered member of your club?
A No

He will in 99% of the cases be receiving 'expenses'.

I have deliberately used quotation marks because unless the 'expenses' paid are fully vouchered they are classed as payment.

Ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law, there are none so blind as those who will not see etc etc.

So should a player demand access to the list of registered members and also demand to see the documents of vouchered expenses before they step onto the field for fear of being a hypocrite?
Come on!

[his holiness nb]

I like many others probably break the speed limits while on a journey of more than 5 miles. That doesn't mean that I have no regard for the laws of the land. If a club hasn't got a quality manager amongst it's own membership and is willing to pay a guy to do the job, then that is alright by me. If it is my club and we pay a guy who puts in a lot of time and effort, then I can live with that.

I'll ignore the comparison with the rules of the road lest old arguments resurface 

But what you are basically saying is that you dont mind the rules being broken once it gives you a competitive advantage.

[darbyo]

 I think that is stretching what I said a bit. When the ban on playing 'foreign' sports was in existence would you not play a player who played soccer also? I don't agree with professionalism but if a club has a wealthy member who is willing to fund an outside manager I think that that is ok. Is it ideal? no but being a manager is a tough job and few can genuinely do it well. IMO it often warrants payment.

[his holiness nb]

I think that is stretching what I said a bit. When the ban on playing 'foreign' sports was in existence would you not play a player who played soccer also? I don't agree with professionalism but if a club has a wealthy member who is willing to fund an outside manager I think that that is ok. Is it ideal? no but being a manager is a tough job and few can genuinely do it well. IMO it often warrants payment.

Never heard of that, but if it did happen, its hardly a point for now as the ban is long gone.

To be honest I dont think I am stretching it at all. To get a better manager which would give you a competitive advantage, you would approve of the club breaking the rules.

It may happen all over, I dont know, but its against the rules of the asscociation.
Knowingly breaking the rules of the association (whether you agree with the rule or not) to gain a competitive advantage is cheating, plain and simple.
This is undeniable.

[passedit]

status of your club's manager here's a quick rule of thumb.

Q Is he a registered member of your club?
A No

He will in 99% of the cases be receiving 'expenses'.

I have deliberately used quotation marks because unless the 'expenses' paid are fully vouchered they are classed as payment.

Ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law, there are none so blind as those who will not see etc etc.

So should a player demand access to the list of registered members and also demand to see the documents of vouchered expenses before they step onto the field for fear of being a hypocrite?
Come on!

Are you serious? 

If your club is that big that you don't know whether someone is a member or not (and i don't mean whether he has paid his subs or not) then it is very unlikely that the profile of the manager will be so low that you are unaware he is from another club.

[his holiness nb]

Are you serious? 

If your club is that big that you don't know whether someone is a member or not (and i don't mean whether he has paid his subs or not) then it is very unlikely that the profile of the manager will be so low that you are unaware he is from another club.

Obviously there are some big names that will stick out as coming from another club. But not always. In my instance, I am only in this club over a year as I moved from Dublin. When I joined I had no idea who the manager was, and whether he was a local or not. I have found out since that he is.
Should I have asked this when I joined the club before I played so as not to be a hypocrite?

Look Passedit I'm not trying to be awkward, just saying that is a bit of a general sweeping statement to say people who play under a paid manager are hypocrites. There are lots of circumstances where players may not be aware of this and its unfair to label them all, thats all I'm saying.

[darbyo]

Never heard of that, but if it did happen, its hardly a point for now as the ban is long gone.

You never heard about the ban on playing soccer and rugby?

To be honest I dont think I am stretching it at all. To get a better manager which would give you a competitive advantage, you would approve of the club breaking the rules.

It may happen all over, I dont know, but its against the rules of the asscociation.
Knowingly breaking the rules of the association (whether you agree with the rule or not) to gain a competitive advantage is cheating, plain and simple.
This is undeniable.

Ah now, it's hardly cheating, if I'm a multi millionaire and I want to get a quality manager into train my club team, that is not cheating. If I couch it in such a way as to make it 'generous' expenses e.g. payment for time lost in work, am I still cheating?

[his holiness nb]

You never heard about the ban on playing soccer and rugby?

ha ha mr smarty pants 

[Ah now, it's hardly cheating, if I'm a multi millionaire and I want to get a quality manager into train my club team, that is not cheating. If I couch it in such a way as to make it 'generous' expenses e.g. payment for time lost in work, am I still cheating?

Breaking the rules to gain a competitive advantage, I really dont know what else to call it but cheating.

Re you being a multi millionaire, this is the whole thing. An advantage should most definately not go to a club, just because they have more money.

Why not donate some of those millions to the juvenile section instead? 

[darbyo]

Why shouldn't a competitive advantage go to a club that has more money?, If one club can raise a lot of money and consequently build an all weather floodlight pitch on which to train kids the whole year round, is that cheating if they go on to dominate all the under age grades?
As a Dublin man hhnb, if Dublin are two points up in the AI final, Steven O'Neill is through and about to pull the trigger,last kick of the game and Paul Casey hauls him to the ground ensuring Sam visits Dublin for the first time since 95 is that an acceptable form of cheating?

[BallyhaiseMan]

im for the grant,

no comment on my club paying expenses 

[stephenite]

I agree with the general points that Passedit makes - however I cannot see the point in pursuing this line until the grants issue for the players is sorted out.

The current discussions/arguments etc that are raging across the Gaelic Games spectrum this last few weeks will come to a head shortly - this will decide where we as an association stand with regards to our rules and regulations on professionalism, for and including Managers and selectors for the next century.

It will either get thrown out at Special Congress and the players will go on strike until somebody blinks (and considering the proposed deal I don't think the GPA will be the ones blinking), or it will be accepted and regardless of the wording of the current agreement between the GPA, GAA and the Government - amateur status will be lost forever, and it could be in 5 or 15 years time but there will be 'elite' full time players crossing County boundaries for money, and then we'll really see what the managers are getting!!

Everyone knows that managers are getting paid at all levels, but I don't see the point in jumping up and down now as it's about 10 odd years too late.

We'll know shortly where we stand - and it'll be open season soon enough for anyone who wants a slice of the action I think.

[his holiness nb]

Why shouldn't a competitive advantage go to a club that has more money?, If one club can raise a lot of money and consequently build an all weather floodlight pitch on which to train kids the whole year round, is that cheating if they go on to dominate all the under age grades?
As a Dublin man hhnb, if Dublin are two points up in the AI final, Steven O'Neill is through and about to pull the trigger,last kick of the game and Paul Casey hauls him to the ground ensuring Sam visits Dublin for the first time since 95 is that an acceptable form of cheating?

Building an all weather floodlight pitch isnt breaking the rules, paying a manager is.

A foul on the pitch is rewarded with a free.
Comparing a foul with paying a manager is ridiculous.