Paying Managers and Hypocrisy

[AZOffaly]

darbyo, I think you are right that there hasn't been as much 'fuss'  over the payment of managers as there is over the payment of players. But the player payments had a single focus point, not to mention a strike threat, which has helped to distill the argument down to a single bone of contention.

With the Managers, I certainly feel that the majority of people would be against paying managers anything other than valid expenses (no quotes).

In fact, I would say that paying managers inflated 'expenses' (quotes intended) is a bigger problem than the grants to players. (At the moment). And I do think that any county board that does this, or any club for that matter, cannot be taken seriously if they speak out against the player grants.

However, I do not think that you can assume that anyone against players getting money to play inter county football is automatically in favour of managers getting a wedge of cash.

I've said before that I'm not against the grants per se, merely concerned with safeguarding the GAA against those grants, and more, becoming part of the GAA's responsibility to finance when the government gets tired of it. I think an important principle has been conceded here, and I'm fearful for the future.

I am also dead set against a manager getting anything more than a proper expense allowance, or maybe even a county sponsored car in lieu of mileage expenses, but nothing else. Just because it's a smaller number of people doesn't make it less wrong, and as has been pointed out, there's no way a county or club guilty of this can deride the players while ignoring the elephant in the corner.

[his holiness nb]

It's hypocritical because none of you kicked up the same amount of fuss as you are doing over this. And ironically if this grant goes through and there is a county team (with a paid manager) playing in Croke Park next year all the players will be getting 'paid', the manger and most of the backroom staff will be getting paid but only the manager and backroom staff will be taking from county board coffers. But which payment are we railing against?, the one we aren't even paying. You couldn't make this up.

From a personal point of view Darbyo it most definately is NOT hypocritical. I havent heard of a manager at either of the 2 clubs I've been at getting paid, and the rumours or other club managers being paid, to me, are just that, rumours. If anyone can provide evidence to prove its happening they should produce it so something can be done.
I cant kick up a fuss because a guy on an internet forum said his club, which he didnt name, pays its manager 
I dont doubt its going on, but how can anything be done unless the guys who know about it blow the whistle?

I'd would say this is worse IMO than the grants, but doesnt make ANY difference to the argument over grants, its a seperate while equally important issue.
Another reason there isnt a big fuss over these issues is that most people are in agreement, it shouldnt happen. Therefore no real need for long discussions.

[darbyo]

Behind the wire you say there wasn't a backlash against payment to managers because it was under the table. Fair enough, but can you not see the hypocrisy when grassroot club members kick up a fuss over a government grant for players while many of them either paid managers, supported the payment, or stood by ideally while this occurred? I'm as much against professionalism as you but this grant isn't professionalism or the dreaded 'thin edge of the wedge'.

AZ the above was written before I saw your post, so it is repeating some of what you said, where we disagree is in our opinions of where this grant might lead us. I just can't see this doomsday scenario coming to pass, because such an eventuality couldn't be forced upon the GAA we all of us would have to vote on it and I couldn't see professionalism getting through on that basis.

[AZOffaly]

Did we all vote on the grant issue? I missed that one.

I don't mean to be sarky, and I genuinely hope that I am wrong, and you are right. The thing is that for that to happen, the GPA will have to act in good faith at all times, and from some of the innuendos being cast about, like Peter Canavan's, or outright statements like Donal Og's, I am deeply, deeply suspicious.

It's the GAA's own fault for not looking after players until it was too late, and the dog was in the manger, but I can't help but feel that the GPA are not too bothered about the amateur ethos of the GAA, or anybody other than GPA members.

My concern is that the GPA will continue to whittle away, shares of TV revenue, shares of Gate Receipts, Increased Grants, etc etc, until it becomes de facto pay for play(if grants don't already constitute that), despite the spin.

You might tell me I'm a doomsday merchant, but the statements that various GPA members have come out with makes me afraid that this is the start of the rot.

[behind the wire]

Behind the wire you say there wasn't a backlash against payment to managers because it was under the table. Fair enough, but can you not see the hypocrisy when grassroot club members kick up a fuss over a government grant for players while many of them either paid managers, supported the payment, or stood by ideally while this occurred? I'm as much against professionalism as you but this grant isn't professionalism or the dreaded 'thin edge of the wedge'.

AZ the above was written before I saw your post, so it is repeating some of what you said, where we disagree is in our opinions of where this grant might lead us. I just can't see this doomsday scenario coming to pass, because such an eventuality couldn't be forced upon the GAA we all of us would have to vote on it and I couldn't see professionalism getting through on that basis.

yes i can clearly see the hypocrisy. that is a fact. it is something that needs to be looked at.

pointing out hypocrisy of members is one thing. you have a very valid point there. however supporting pay for play is another. you cannot use hypocrisy of grassroots members as a reason for supporting paying intercounty players. i have my reasons for being totally against the grant, but they all relate completely too the grant not because of what someone else gets/ doesnt get or has done/hasnt done.

yes it may be hypocrytical but at the end of the day the majority is against pay for play.

[his holiness nb]

Also worth bearing in mind that a huge proportion of people opposing the grants have no involvement with payment towards managers are are therefore not being hypocritical at all.

[AZOffaly]

I agree Hnb. I think it would be hypocritical to be in favour of paying managers, but against paying players.

I don't think too many people, although I do know of one or two, would be of that mind.

I don't think it's hypocritical to be against both, or for both.

I think that the only charge that could be levelled at people who are against both, but only really vocal about the grants issue, is that they are only dealing with the hot potato, rather than the rest of the iceberg, to mix my metaphors.

[his holiness nb]

Spot on.

[passedit]

People who play under a paid manager or whose clubs pay a manager and haven't spoken against it at their agm and yet are heading to the elk with their pitchforks i'd call hypocrites. Also those who say you can't prove it so it can't be tackled.

Why are people shouting at the top table to stop the march of professionalism when they can take much more effective steps themselves at 'grassroots' level but won't.

[darbyo]

In fairness AZ, I think you'd accept that many people are indifferent about the grants. But a situation where the GAA becomes professional and all that that would entail can't just creep up on the association. I have no doubt that Donal og would love to be a professionl hurler but I also believe he is a passionate Cork and Cloyne man. And as such wouldn't want a situation where club football/hurling is destroyed or where Cork field a team made up of Waterford, Tipp and Kilkenny men. Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see how enough people would truly want a professional GAA.

Also worth bearing in mind that a huge proportion of people opposing the grants have no involvement with payment towards managers are are therefore not being hypocritical at all.

Is there a huge proportion against them? I've spoken to a good number of people and few are strongly against them, and a good few support it. I'd also like to know what people think all this might achieve. Could it, for example, make players more militant and end up causing a lot more problems than it is solving. Student grants, under the counter payments, administrative wages, would all have to be reviewed (esp. the first two). If there is a battle to be fought for amateurism in the GAA, this isn't. I think the 'grassroots' maybe creating a crisis rather than reacting to one.

[his holiness nb]

People who play under a paid manager or whose clubs pay a manager and haven't spoken against it at their agm and yet are heading to the elk with their pitchforks i'd call hypocrites. Also those who say you can't prove it so it can't be tackled.

I'd agree with the first point, but it still leaves the majority (I would presume) free of the hypocrite label.

But "those who say you cant prove it so it cant be tackled" are hypocrites?
Thats utter rubbish. I never said it can't or shouldnt be tackled, merely asked what can you do.
I have just heard on this site that a poster who doesnt disclose his club says his manager is paid.
I have said already I cant kick up a fuss as I dont have proof, I also pointed out the need for the people who know the facts to come out and report theses people. What else should I do to avoid being called a hypocrite in these circumstances??  

[darbyo]

I do know of lads who have been paid, in fact I have been approached myself (in a round about way) to know if I'd be interested in coaching for a few bob. And I honestly have no problem with it.

[his holiness nb]

Also worth bearing in mind that a huge proportion of people opposing the grants have no involvement with payment towards managers are are therefore not being hypocritical at all.

Is there a huge proportion against them? I've spoken to a good number of people and few are strongly against them, and a good few support it. I'd also like to know what people think all this might achieve. Could it, for example, make players more militant and end up causing a lot more problems than it is solving. Student grants, under the counter payments, administrative wages, would all have to be reviewed (esp. the first two). If there is a battle to be fought for amateurism in the GAA, this isn't. I think the 'grassroots' maybe creating a crisis rather than reacting to one.

You've misunderstood my post. I'm not saying theres a huge proportion against the grants, I dont know what way its split.
I'm saying a huge proportion of the people who are against it, have no involvement with payment of managers.

Also re Passedits comments about people who play under played managers etc, bear in mind I'm sure they wont be shouting from the rooftops that they are paying the manager as its against the rules, therefore there could well be people playing under these managers while not knowing it.


The list of hypocrits reduces further.

[his holiness nb]

I do know of lads who have been paid, in fact I have been approached myself (in a round about way) to know if I'd be interested in coaching for a few bob. And I honestly have no problem with it.

Well its against the rules, did you do anything about it?

[darbyo]

No because I have no (real) problem with this practice.