The Eleven Plus - Beginning of the End

[gerry]

and they shot my dog.

they not big fans of dogs.

You seem scared still by this

[saffron sam2]

SS2 you were lucky that in your part of the world as a child you had one of the best comprehensive schools around but getting into its grammar stream was the route to your well deserved academic success!  Not everyone has such a school in their area.

A few things about this. Any academic success that I had was down to my parents and I don't think I would have achieved anything more in a different school.  In all my years at school (being educated and educating) I never heard the word grammar mentioned to describe the streaming that does take place in the schools.  Yes, streaming took (takes) place, based either on references from primary schools or standardised tests. There was and is always the possibility of moving from any of the streamed classes to any other one.  It wasn't that there were (are) two different 'schooling' ethoses is each year group.  Besides, even if there had been a 'grammar' stream, it is a big assumption to think I actually would have made it!.

The majority of the boys in my P7 class transferred to the same second level school and were then streamed to best suit their abilities. That's how it should be, imo, but how it most likely never will be.

The Head of Department probably knew too much about you and she wouldn't want you in her excellent department!

It was actually one of her predecessors who interviewed me.

[saffron sam2]

It was actually one of her predecessors who interviewed me.

That must have been for her job! 

It was.

[passedit]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/article3218627.ece

Grammar revolt on 11-plus

   


They sign up to an alternative transfer test as patience runs out

Monday, December 03, 2007

By Lisa Smyth and Emily Moulton

A pro academic selection lobby group today threw down the gauntlet to Education Minister Caitriona Ruane by devising an alternative transfer test which could be used by up to 20 Ulster grammar schools, the Belfast Telegraph can reveal today.

However, parents across Northern Ireland could be forced to pay a fee to allow their children to sit the exam.

With the 11-plus due to be axed next year, the body responsible for the implementation of the transfer test, CCEA, has told the Assembly's Education Committee it needs direction on the matter by January 31.

But, with just 59 days remaining, Education Minister Caitriona Ruane is refusing to announce her intentions for a replacement for the 11-plus.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield, from the Association for Quality Education, said the group has created a common entry test which could be put in place if Ms Ruane fails to find a suitable alternative to the 11-plus.

"The Department of Education has given conflicting statements about whether it will fund these tests but most recently has said it will not," he said.

"We are looking at the possibility that pupils may have to pay a fee to sit the test but this would have to be waived for low income families as we don't want to exclude anyone.

"We're not sure how much money this is going to cost and there is more work to be done. About 40 grammar schools expressed an interest in implementing a common entry test and I think we could have as many as 20 taking part but I would say to all schools that they need to work to the same timetable given by CCEA and make a decision fairly soon."

While refusing to make an announcement on the issue, the Minister has always expressed her dislike for any form of academic selection and has insisted that the 11-plus will be scrapped next year.

In recent months, the minister has spoken of her desire to see children make their own education choices at 14, instead of 11, without any form of academic selection.

This format would require a complete overhaul of the current education system in Northern Ireland.

A spokesman from the department confirmed the minister had met with representatives from the AQE several times regarding the issue.

"The minister has made clear that she is currently considering options for transfer from primary to post primary in 2010," he said.

Sir Kenneth said that while the AQE does not support the 11-plus, its members believe a test, based primarily on the maths and English curriculum which it has created with the help of education experts, is the best option while the minister refuses to reveal her plans.

He said: "We have a situation where the department funds integrated schools and Irish-medium language schools, but is saying that it will not fund a common entry test for grammar schools wishing to retain academic selection.

"Are we really saying that while we can provide all different kinds of schools in Northern Ireland, we are going to get rid of grammar schools?

"It doesn't seem fair at all," added Sir Kenneth.

[Bacon]

I hate to say this but "think of the children"! They need something to allow things to progress in the meantime. I don't think the future of 11 year olds should be subject to political issues. This won't be sorted out easily. Catroina still has to persuade the Assembly that her way is the right way.

[Donagh]

How is the selection for 11 year old leaving primary school supposed to happen now. Who will decide who gets to grammar school and who doesnt? It seems a very strange decision but what else can we expect form Catriona Ruane

If you had been paying attention to what she has been saying over the past few months, it's not confusing at all. There will be no selection for grammar schools at 11. Instead children will progress to local secondary schools at 11 and streamed therein on the basis of their profiling from teachers and subject based entrance tests. The advantage of this is that (i) children now have the chance to mature before making life forming decisions and (ii) primary school teachers no longer have to put all of their resources into teaching to an unfair test comprising of two papers.

At 14 children will then have the choice of progressing to grammar for GCSE and A's, staying at the same school for GCSE's and then progressing to vocational, academic or specialist courses at college, or staying at the same school for GCSE's and A's.

More choice for the child all round, allows them to stay with their friends, takes the pressure of the children and provides a level playing field for all as parents who can afford to provide private tutition for the 11 plus will no longer have the advantage over the others.   

[Lecale2]

It will be very difficult to manage the transition Donagh and I've no idea how they'll do it.

If we take Newry as an example - all boys will transfer to St Joseph's or St Paul's at age 11 (secondary schools). None will go to the Abbey or St Colman's (grammar schools). At 14 some will transfer to Abbey & St Colman's for GCSE and A levels.
Is that the plan?
Have the secondary schools the accommodation and teachers to handle the extra pupils at age 11? Will teachers in the grammar schools be made redundant with no first years coming in?

[Donagh]

It will be very difficult to manage the transition Donagh and I've no idea how they'll do it.

If we take Newry as an example - all boys will transfer to St Joseph's or St Paul's at age 11 (secondary schools). None will go to the Abbey or St Colman's (grammar schools). At 14 some will transfer to Abbey & St Colman's for GCSE and A levels.
Is that the plan?
Have the secondary schools the accommodation and teachers to handle the extra pupils at age 11? Will teachers in the grammar schools be made redundant with no first years coming in?

No there's nothing to say that the current grammar's can't take children at 11 as well. The difference being that they will not accept them on the basis of the transfer test but on other criteria. Their current years 1-3 would in effect become a Junior High School with the children then opting to stay on or go elsewhere at 14.

[Tony Baloney]

All men are not created equal. Whatever age you are you have to accept at some stage that you just aren't as smart as the kid next to you but you may be better at other things. If comprehensive education actually functioned correctly it could be seen as a viable vocational alternative to the academic route of grammar school education. One could be different but not better than the other. Who is smarter - the child who left at 16 to become a builder and now making megabucks or the grammar school child who got a degree and now works in a shop (there are hundreds of them)?

[Donagh]

Donagh is there ever a party press release that you dont agree with?
Yet again, I believe Ruane has messed up, in fact she is the best recruiting officer the SDLP ever had in South Down. Give the job back to a local instead of this brainless blow-in.

Actually this system is one I favoured for a long time, even way back when Ruane was still in Teach na Féile. It's also one that's favoured by most of our leading educationalists including Profs Tony Gallagher, Paul Connolly and Jannette Elwood from Queen's School of Education who have all published research in the area.   

[Solomon Kane]

There is a lot of bullshit being peddled about the 11+ being life changing. It is anything but. Although it can decide what school kids can go to it really has no bearing on their choices for GCSE and A Level. In todays society the old school tie network has very little in the way of influence the way it had years ago. The larger employers are more constrained by equal opportunities legislation regarding background, race and disability to worry about who daddy was etc. The more sought after schools will probably end up setting their own enterance exams for 13 year olds which will the 11 plus look like a four piece jigsaw for a two year old. Or possibly worse, certain kids being admitted on sporting ability. I realise that the 11+ is too much pressure for a kid that age, but selection is definately needed somewhere down the line - life is selective. That said, Ruane got to be education minister and she doesn't seem to have the brains she was born with. That can be the only explanation for dumping one system before a replacement is perfected.
 

[Donagh]

Quite wrong Donagh.  Tony Gallagher's research of the Dickson Plan or the Craigavon education system of 11-14 and 14-19 schools showed that it was a failure.  I spoke to him about it last week and he agreed that his research did not support the Dickson Plan as the way forward.  In other words as successful as Craigavon itself.

Not at all TYP, I've spoke with him about this on a few occasions and he has said that Dickson is much more favourable a solution than the 11+.

[saffron]

Sinn Fein in charge of Education - sweet Jesus......

Caitriona Ruane in charge of Education - sweet sweet Jesus....

The sooner Fianna Fail get up here the better - corruption and all.....

[saffron sam2]

How is the selection for 11 year old leaving primary school supposed to happen now. Who will decide who gets to grammar school and who doesnt? It seems a very strange decision but what else can we expect form Catriona Ruane

If you had been paying attention to what she has been saying over the past few months, it's not confusing at all. There will be no selection for grammar schools at 11. Instead children will progress to local secondary schools at 11 and streamed therein on the basis of their profiling from teachers and subject based entrance tests. The advantage of this is that (i) children now have the chance to mature before making life forming decisions and (ii) primary school teachers no longer have to put all of their resources into teaching to an unfair test comprising of two papers.

At 14 children will then have the choice of progressing to grammar for GCSE and A's, staying at the same school for GCSE's and then progressing to vocational, academic or specialist courses at college, or staying at the same school for GCSE's and A's.

More choice for the child all round, allows them to stay with their friends, takes the pressure of the children and provides a level playing field for all as parents who can afford to provide private tutition for the 11 plus will no longer have the advantage over the others.   

That's it all sorted then. Excellent.

From where I am sitting right now, I can see three second level boys' schools.  Add in Rathmore which is hidden behind trees.  At the age of 11, a male pupil in the primary school that I can also see from here, goes to which of these four schools outlined above?

Actually this system is one I favoured for a long time, even way back when Ruane was still in Teach na Féile. It's also one that's favoured by most of our leading educationalists including Profs Tony Gallagher, Paul Connolly and Jannette Elwood from Queen's School of Education who have all published research in the area.   

My job means that I am contact with educationalists from Queen's School of Education, mainly through dealing with PGCE students.  From talking to these people it would seem that many at the School of Education actually favour selection at 11 and that there may not be grounds for your use of the word most in the post above.

What schools did academics Gallagher, Connolly and Elwood attend?
If that trio have children, what schools did those children attend?

[Donagh]

From where I am sitting right now, I can see three second level boys' schools.  Add in Rathmore which is hidden behind trees.  At the age of 11, a male pupil in the primary school that I can also see from here, goes to which of these four schools outlined above?

No one is saying it's sorted SS. Belfast is where the main problem is exactly for the reason you have just outlined. I've sat in on seminars at Queen's GSoE where they have been trying to solve this problem and I've yet to hear the answer. However that does not mean that the current proposals are by far a better proposal than the 11 plus.

My job means that I am contact with educationalists from Queen's School of Education, mainly through dealing with PGCE students.  From talking to these people it would seem that many at the School of Education actually favour selection at 11 and that there may not be grounds for your use of the word most in the post above.

What schools did academics Gallagher, Connolly and Elwood attend?
If that trio have children, what schools did those children attend?

There are a few in the School that favour selection, but I have yet to meet one that favours the eleven plus.