The Eleven Plus - Beginning of the End

[pintsofguinness]

So with today being one of the last days for the eleven plus do people view this as a good or bad thing? 

Personally I think it's a great thing, and hopefully will put an end to the separating of children at 11 years of age into categories that could possibly shape their future. 
I haven't heard what's to replace it (or if there is something yet?) but hopefully it'll be a long the lines of streaming with children being fit to move into groups that suit them as they develop and grow, something like what High Schools use. 

[Square Ball]

One of my ones finished his today, thankfully. I will wait and see what they replace it with but, I am with you on this one, something along streaming must be the way forward. Children have differing academic abilities and need to be separated and taught at a speed that suits theire neeeds, but with everything if its an entire class thats streamed this may not work, again kids may be fantastic at some subjects and not at others, will it possible to stream the child as opposed the class? this is what the Torys have recommended.

[Pangurban]

A long overdue reform, but i wouldnt celebrate just yet, the grammar school lobby are powerful and well organised, the education minister is dithering and unsure, and elitist so called academies funded by businesses with questionable motives are being promoted as the future.

[saffron sam2]

Grammar schools have effectively sealed their own fate here.  Whilst the overall enrolment is going down, the numbers attending grammar schools isn't. This means one of two things - either P7 students are getting smarter or grammar schools are moving (lowering) the goal posts and becoming 'de facto' comprehensive schools. Unless all grammar schools have the same basic academic standard for entry then they have no right to exist as grammar schools.

[Square Ball]

my ones class was supposed to be the first ones not to the 11 plus, and as we all know this has not happened, I have one more in P4 who again are being targeted as the first ones to undergo the new test, or what ever.

As Pangurban points out the lobby group is powerfull and I think whatever happens there will be a great deal of selection, survival of the most academic fittest will more than likely prevail

[Ballboa]

Well it is fairly common knowledge Grammar schools are accepting pupils they wouldnt have 15 years ago, i suppose its about money like everything else.

[Ballboa]

I will be happy to see the end of the current Transfer Test.

However, I do not see the end of academic selection given the guarantees given by the St Andrew's agreement whereby any proposals to remove it will require cross community support and any new proposals will fails if at least 30 MLAs "pray" against them.

There is a level of hyprocrisy where there is support monolithic high schools and streaming because you have internal academic selection and children are still separated by doing a test to decide on their stream.  The aim of every parent is to get their child into the highest possible stream.  This inevitably leads to coaching for the streaming test and all the same "stress" and heartache for parents and children.  There is anecdotal evidence that there is more tutoring and coaching in Maghera for the coaching exam than there is in other towns for the 11+.

I think we need diversity of provision with schools in an area where academic and vocational schools are equally good and parents can feel comfortable in choosing a school suitable for their child.  Each school would offer a different curriculum.  Too the older among us it would be like the tripartite system with the grammar school, intermediate and Tech meeting the needs of all children according to their abilities and interests.  In such a system trades would be as valued as degrees.

No wonder the education system is in the state its in with misuse of grammar like that..........

[saffron sam2]

I will be happy to see the end of the current Transfer Test.

However, I do not see the end of academic selection given the guarantees given by the St Andrew's agreement whereby any proposals to remove it will require cross community support and any new proposals will fails if at least 30 MLAs "pray" against them.

There is a level of hyprocrisy where there is support monolithic high schools and streaming because you have internal academic selection and children are still separated by doing a test to decide on their stream.  The aim of every parent is to get their child into the highest possible stream.  This inevitably leads to coaching for the streaming test and all the same "stress" and heartache for parents and children.  There is anecdotal evidence that there is more tutoring and coaching in Maghera for the coaching exam than there is in other towns for the 11+.

I think we need diversity of provision with schools in an area where academic and vocational schools are equally good and parents can feel comfortable in choosing a school suitable for their child.  Each school would offer a different curriculum.  Too the older among us it would be like the tripartite system with the grammar school, intermediate and Tech meeting the needs of all children according to their abilities and interests.  In such a system trades would be as valued as degrees.

What did St. Andrew have to do with the agreement?  Surely you meant St. Andrews' agreement.

[pintsofguinness]

SS

Grammar schools have effectively sealed their own fate here.  Whilst the overall enrolment is going down, the numbers attending grammar schools isn't. This means one of two things - either P7 students are getting smarter or grammar schools are moving (lowering) the goal posts and becoming 'de facto' comprehensive schools. Unless all grammar schools have the same basic academic standard for entry then they have no right to exist as grammar schools.

That post angers me SS because it should not be about what's best for Grammar Schools it's about how children can be educated at the highest standard possible.  Grammar schools are not interested in this but are only interested in their own name. 

Why do we need Grammar Schools? 


TYP

There is a level of hyprocrisy where there is support monolithic high schools and streaming because you have internal academic selection and children are still separated by doing a test to decide on their stream.  The aim of every parent is to get their child into the highest possible stream.  This inevitably leads to coaching for the streaming test and all the same "stress" and heartache for parents and children.  There is anecdotal evidence that there is more tutoring and coaching in Maghera for the coaching exam than there is in other towns for the 11+.

That's true but if there was something like we have in high schools now where children can be moved up and down groups as they develop than any coaching for any type of streaming exam would be pointless as it would soon become very obvious the child was in a wrong group.

I think we need diversity of provision with schools in an area where academic and vocational schools are equally good and parents can feel comfortable in choosing a school suitable for their child.  Each school would offer a different curriculum.  Too the older among us it would be like the tripartite system with the grammar school, intermediate and Tech meeting the needs of all children according to their abilities and interests.  In such a system trades would be as valued as degrees.

Do you propose that at 11 years of age a parent will know what's the best type of school for their child? 
With the snobbery that goes on now when many parent's would die sooner than see their child go to a high school I can't see very many choosing any sort of tech school.

[ONeill]

Too the older among us it would be like the tripartite system with the grammar school

Can't make head nor tail of that TYP.

[Sandy Hill]

I will be happy to see the end of the current Transfer Test and so will I


There is a level of hyprocrisy where there is support monolithic high schools and streaming because you have internal academic selection and children are still separated by doing a test to decide on their stream.  The aim of every parent is to get their child into the highest possible stream.  This inevitably leads to coaching for the streaming test and all the same "stress" and heartache for parents and children.  
I think we need diversity of provision with schools in an area where academic and vocational schools are equally good and parents can feel comfortable in choosing a school suitable for their child.

I can't agree with your latter statment TYP. In schools (non-grammar) where there is fairly rigid streaming, the aim of every parent is indeed to get their child into the highest stream. In the scenario which you seem to advocate streaming is taking place, but on a "school type" basis and in this situation parents will still want the "highest" stream for their children, ie the grammar school.
Surely the answer is schools which are truly comprehensive. In these, rigid streaming is not used but rather a system of "setting" is in place. This means that pupils, for each subject, will be placed in groups which reflects their ability in any particular subject. The organisation of this presents schools with a challenge but these can certainly be overcome particularly where you have a timetabler with a bit of imagination and patience. One of the major advantages of all this is that whole communities, pupils with different academic abilities and social backgrounds and of both sexes, are educated together, surely a reflection of what society could be.

[ONeill]

I think that's where schools like TYP's will start to lose out. Schools who neglect the vocational-heavy courses in favour of old-fashioned academic options will find themselves tying the noose around their own necks. In West Belfast we now have grammar schools studying the secondary model to see why they are losing out in terms of numbers and academic achievement.

[ONeill]

It's mostly post-16 I'm writing about. You say App ICT, App Business, Sport, Accounting, 2 flavours of Technology - I can't see the catering there for post-16 non-academia/vocational studies.

[pintsofguinness]

Why don't those voting "no" explain there reasons for voting that way?

[ONeill]

"their" reasons.

Sums it all up.