Author Topic: Things that make you go What the F**k?  (Read 859354 times)

David McKeown

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6105 on: October 24, 2019, 06:52:05 PM »
Even *if* the lad did accept a few quid to collect the trailer at the docks and open it in the estate to let immigrants/asylum seekers out, it in no way makes him culpable for their deaths. That lies squarely with whoever locked them in the trailer with no means of survival or escape, accident or not.

If the driver in question did know that he was to do what you had suggested or similar, in having knowledge that the container had a number of people inside it as part of a human trafficking operation, then there is a chance that he could be charged with murder or manslaughter on the basis of Joint Enterprise or Common Purpose.

I would agree on Manslaughter although the Supreme Court made a ruling on that last year called Jogee which might make that more difficult. I donít see how they will ever prove murder given theyíd need to prove an intention to kill or cause serious harm.

under the bar

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6106 on: October 24, 2019, 07:52:03 PM »
Even *if* the lad did accept a few quid to collect the trailer at the docks and open it in the estate to let immigrants/asylum seekers out, it in no way makes him culpable for their deaths. That lies squarely with whoever locked them in the trailer with no means of survival or escape, accident or not.

If the driver in question did know that he was to do what you had suggested or similar, in having knowledge that the container had a number of people inside it as part of a human trafficking operation, then there is a chance that he could be charged with murder or manslaughter on the basis of Joint Enterprise or Common Purpose.

How could it be murder or manslaughter on the basis of joint enterprise if they were already dead when he collected the container?

David McKeown

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6107 on: October 24, 2019, 08:30:39 PM »
Even *if* the lad did accept a few quid to collect the trailer at the docks and open it in the estate to let immigrants/asylum seekers out, it in no way makes him culpable for their deaths. That lies squarely with whoever locked them in the trailer with no means of survival or escape, accident or not.

If the driver in question did know that he was to do what you had suggested or similar, in having knowledge that the container had a number of people inside it as part of a human trafficking operation, then there is a chance that he could be charged with murder or manslaughter on the basis of Joint Enterprise or Common Purpose.

How could it be murder or manslaughter on the basis of joint enterprise if they were already dead when he collected the container?

As I say I think murder would be impossible to prove in these circumstances but the timing of their death maybe immaterial to a manslaughter conviction. Joint enterprise would only require people to have been involved in the trafficking and had enough knowledge of it. So say (and I stress this is a completely hypothetical situation and not what I am suggesting or speculating happened) there were three people involved in the trafficking. One who organised it, one who took the money off the people and hid them in the container and a third who knew what was in the container and agreed to pick it up and deliver it somewhere, all three would be guilty on a joint enterprise basis provided all three had sufficient knowledge of what was happening.

Fionntamhnach

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6108 on: October 24, 2019, 08:48:18 PM »
Even *if* the lad did accept a few quid to collect the trailer at the docks and open it in the estate to let immigrants/asylum seekers out, it in no way makes him culpable for their deaths. That lies squarely with whoever locked them in the trailer with no means of survival or escape, accident or not.

If the driver in question did know that he was to do what you had suggested or similar, in having knowledge that the container had a number of people inside it as part of a human trafficking operation, then there is a chance that he could be charged with murder or manslaughter on the basis of Joint Enterprise or Common Purpose.

How could it be murder or manslaughter on the basis of joint enterprise if they were already dead when he collected the container?

If he knew that the container contained 39 Chinese nationals (as reported) seeking to illegally immigrate (presumably into the UK), regardless wherever they were dead or alive when he took the container, then he becomes part of the group of individuals that took part in this human trafficking incident which they seek to profit from the crime, even if the death of the humans being trafficked was not the intention but that there was a knowledgeable risk of hiding them in an airtight container.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_purpose

A recent example of joint enterprise (aka common purpose) being found in court was in the Anastasia Kriegel case, involving the actions of the defendant known as "Boy B". It's a principle that is found in many justice systems that involve Common Law, including England & Ireland.

However, if the driver being questioned genuinely did not have any knowledge that the container that he collected contained a human cargo which turned into a major tradegy, he should hopefully have nothing to worry about concerning being charged. He could be kept in for questioning to help the police with their enquiries as to what he did know or rather what he was told about the cargo he collected, helping gather evidence for the police.

Time will tell as to what will happen. The revelation that those whom died were Chinese nationals helps recall the Morecombe Bay incident 15 years ago when 21 illegal Chinese labourers drowned from the incoming tide whilst collect cocklings on the coast of Lancashire, England. They too, it was discovered, reached England illegally via a container.
"I can't be arsed any more; too much ignorance, bigotry, dogma, idiocy & retreat from reason"

under the bar

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6109 on: October 24, 2019, 10:16:34 PM »
Was Morecambe bay 15 years ago?? Jeez seems about 5.  Another in a long line of tragedies that the establishment doesn't give a shit about.

yellowcard

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6110 on: October 24, 2019, 10:27:08 PM »
Was Morecambe bay 15 years ago?? Jeez seems about 5.  Another in a long line of tragedies that the establishment doesn't give a shit about.

Particularly so when it is foreign nationals as its victims. Watch how quickly this tragedy fades from the news.

Itís a humanitarian issue and then you hear of the number of drownings which occur regularly as people try to flee war torn and poverty stricken areas that donít even register as news.

under the bar

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6111 on: October 24, 2019, 10:33:06 PM »
Was Morecambe bay 15 years ago?? Jeez seems about 5.  Another in a long line of tragedies that the establishment doesn't give a shit about.

Particularly so when it is foreign nationals as its victims. Watch how quickly this tragedy fades from the news.

Itís a humanitarian issue and then you hear of the number of drownings which occur regularly as people try to flee war torn and poverty stricken areas that donít even register as news.

Fleeing the wars in Syria and Yemen that the British govt
makes billions from selling weapons of total destruction to that create millions of asylum seekers.

snoopdog

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6112 on: October 24, 2019, 10:55:38 PM »
Was Morecambe bay 15 years ago?? Jeez seems about 5.  Another in a long line of tragedies that the establishment doesn't give a shit about.

Particularly so when it is foreign nationals as its victims. Watch how quickly this tragedy fades from the news.

Itís a humanitarian issue and then you hear of the number of drownings which occur regularly as people try to flee war torn and poverty stricken areas that donít even register as news.

Fleeing the wars in Syria and Yemen that the British govt
makes billions from selling weapons of total destruction to that create millions of asylum seekers.
They were Chinese.

give her dixie

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6113 on: October 25, 2019, 02:49:15 AM »
Firstly I want to acknowledge that 39 men and women died in tragic circumstances. what a cruel death they suffered.

As a lorry driver who hauls temperature controlled goods on fridges between Ireland and the UK, and drops off
and collects refrigerated trailers at ports between Ireland and the UK I have a bit of knowledge of the way things work.

To collect a trailer at the port you must produce a reference number supplied from your company and show ID.
Your details are entered into the computer and you are given an exit pass. You go collect the trailer, and do your checks.
Paperwork is usually in an external compartment and you retrieve that. You check on the temperature of the fridge (if it is
a chilled load you are collecting), and if the trailer isn't sealed, you open the doors and check inside if the load is stable. If the doors are sealed, you do not break the seal and open the doors, especially if it is a temperature controlled load. When you have done these checks, you hook up and go. At security on way out, they check your pass. They check the trailer number and reference  against their records, and if correct, they let you go. (There are usually camera recording you and your movements when enter and exit at the security checks). You then either go on to deliver the load, or bring it back to the yard.

Looking at what has happened in Essex I can only go this much. 

The driver left Ireland solo (without a trailer) and arrived in Holyhead on Sunday. He then travelled down to Essex and on Tuesday night/ Wednesday morning he went into the docks and collected a trailer. He would have to have shown his ID and produced a reference number. Given that the ship had docked shortly before he would have been aware what time the trailer was ready for collection. He then hooked up and would then have had to show his exit pass on the way out that corresponded with the trailer.

Where  the load was for, we don't know. What we do know is that he only drove a couple of miles into an Industrial Estate,  stopped and got out of the truck and then opened the doors. There was a load in the trailer, of which we don't know, and the bodies of 39 men and women, lifeless. A call was made by someone to the ambulance service, and it was they that they called called the police. A few hours later the driver was arrested on suspicion of murder, and has been held since, with the police been given another 48 hours to question him.

The police will go through tracking devices on the truck and trailer, ANPR cameras will track all the trucks movements on the
roads in the UK to determine when and where it went, and shipping records will show the trailer movements. Authorities on the Belgium side will be able to identify the truck who delivered the trailer into the docks for shipping, and the driver. Again, their movements will be easy to track. The drivers phone / phones will be dissected. Temperature details of the trailer will be easily available. Paperwork will be investigated. CCTV from routes along the way will be poured over. Any evidence gathered from searches of both his and his parents homes, along with another house  will be thoroughly examined. 

My best guess is this. He went in and picked up the trailer and noticed something was wrong with the fridge temperature wise.
either the fridge was switched off or had run out of diesel, or the temperature was set too low. He pulled out and maybe made a phone call to someone, and then pulled into a quiet spot to check on the trailer. From the images I have seen it appears he stopped in a hurry. He's got out to check on the load and discovered the worst. If the load was sealed, why did he break the seal. And if the load wasn't sealed, then why did he not open the doors in the docks when he collected the trailer?

Fridges run at temperatures from -30 to +30 depending on the load. Lets say the fridge was set for +15, then that's a supply of fresh air at that temperature as long as the fridge is running. On the ferry, if the fridge is loaded on an open deck the fridge is powered by it's own engine, or by an electric plug in the bottom decks. Either way, fresh air is going through the trailer at a certain temperature. If the fridge is stopped, then it is a sealed box with no fresh air getting in.

As things stand, it's not looking good for the driver who has been named and has had his photos plastered everywhere, something which is wrong. And why has nobody in the media identified who owned the lorry?

While debate and questions will go on, 39 men and women died a horrible death

People took money of them and  put them in a trailer and shipped them to the UK.

People in the UK knew the trailer was arriving and arranged transport.

Let's hope as many people involved at any level in this go to jail for a very long time.





next stop, September 10, for number 4......

Hereiam

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6114 on: October 25, 2019, 09:36:25 AM »
It wouldn't be normal practice for a tractor unit to head off from Ireland to England without a load on behind... would it, surly to make these trips economically viable the unit needs to always be pulling a trailer loaded with something.

Denn Forever

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6115 on: October 25, 2019, 10:35:05 AM »
The driver raised the alarm.
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that says what he means and
means what he says...

nrico2006

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6116 on: October 25, 2019, 10:45:24 AM »
How do they know the victims were Chinese?
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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6117 on: October 25, 2019, 11:42:50 AM »
It wouldn't be normal practice for a tractor unit to head off from Ireland to England without a load on behind... would it, surly to make these trips economically viable the unit needs to always be pulling a trailer loaded with something.

It is extremely rare that a lorry would travel out on a boat and drive that distance to wait a couple of days to collect a trailer.  The rates for haulage are bad enough and it makes no sense doing it
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

give her dixie

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6118 on: October 25, 2019, 11:43:54 AM »
How do they know the victims were Chinese?

Early identification by authorities have said so
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

RedHand88

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Re: Things that make you go What the F**k?
« Reply #6119 on: October 25, 2019, 11:51:07 AM »
How do they know the victims were Chinese?

I thought this myself. What's to say they aren't French?