Author Topic: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?  (Read 20118 times)

darbyo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2007, 03:28:27 PM »
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How can clubs claim compensation in any shape or form??? Amateur players who are playing for their love of the game remember and you want to penalise them by saying AFL clubs have to pay for them???

How is it penalising the players? I think someone else on here made the point that professional soccer clubs will give amateur clubs a small fee and then a more substantial amount in the event the player they sign goes on to play a certain number of senior games. I'm not sure if this is true but I think it is, irrespective, I think the GAA could work out a deal with the AFL where any player who actually signs a 2 year contract has his club and county compensated to the tune of lets say 20000 each, rising to 50K each should he play 25 senior games, or some variation of that.
    That kind of money would be pittance to any AFL club but a substantial pay off to any GAA club. I accept that this couldn't legally be forced on the AFL clubs but I'm sure they wouldn't have much problem paying 100-150K for the next Tadgh Kennelly. If the player didn't make it they'd have only invested an extra 40K which is nothing to them.

DUBSFORSAM1

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2007, 04:36:39 PM »
Darbyo - It penalises the players by reducing the chances of them having a professional sporting career....with regards to the soccer clubs that is becuase they are a professional sport who all operate under FIFA rules which enforce this...which is not in place within GAA/AFL....

Why would the AFL even contemplate a concept whereby they would agree to pay for players - they don't even play for young players in Aus so why would they do it for Irish players???

The only way to get some sort of agreement is to start the compromise rules series again.

dodo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2007, 05:05:41 PM »
I am of a completly different opinion. The GAA will lose some of there best players, YES, but what a great oppurtity for the young fellas. They get a chance to become a professional sportsman and make a living out of playing sport. We are only talking 3 or 4 players a year max, it is not going to destroy the GAA. If a member of my club was offered a trail I would be delighted for him and wishing hm all the best, yes it would be a loss to the club on the playin side, but i think everyone would be so proud of him and he club for producing such a star.
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Would you and your clubmates not be more proud of your hypothetical player if he made it on the Fermanagh senior team and turns out to be real star in the game ? A game that you and your club belong to and have a passionate involvement in. If you would be more proud of him playing Aussie rules on the other side of the world.....well......that asks more questions than it answers IMO.

darbyo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2007, 05:13:23 PM »
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Darbyo - It penalises the players by reducing the chances of them having a professional sporting career..

No it doesn't, you can't be suggesting that AFL clubs wouldn't take Irish players because they have to pay an extra 40000 (which is only my example figure) it could be much lower in reality.Regardless of the amount, professional clubs with the resources of AFL teams wouldn't bat an eyelid about paying 30-150K for players and remember the top end is only for lads who have made it onto their senior team. I'm not an expert on the AR system but it is my understanding that Irish players are outside their draft system so paying a nominal fee for these players while not affecting their draft seems a fair compromise.
             If the AFL has the control to tell their clubs they can't recruit Irish players while the Comp. Rules is on then surely they can tell them they have to compensate the Irish clubs and counties if they are wholesale recruiting here. If I owned an AFL club I'd prefer pay 150K for the next Tadgh Kennelly rather than know he is in Ireland but I can't get him because of an end of season kick around between two different sporting organizations.

Puckoon

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2007, 05:27:01 PM »
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How can clubs claim compensation in any shape or form??? Amateur players who are playing for their love of the game remember and you want to penalise them by saying AFL clubs have to pay for them???

How is it penalising the players? I think someone else on here made the point that professional soccer clubs will give amateur clubs a small fee and then a more substantial amount in the event the player they sign goes on to play a certain number of senior games. I'm not sure if this is true but I think it is, irrespective, I think the GAA could work out a deal with the AFL where any player who actually signs a 2 year contract has his club and county compensated to the tune of lets say 20000 each, rising to 50K each should he play 25 senior games, or some variation of that.     That kind of money would be pittance to any AFL club but a substantial pay off to any GAA club. I accept that this couldn't legally be forced on the AFL clubs but I'm sure they wouldn't have much problem paying 100-150K for the next Tadgh Kennelly. If the player didn't make it they'd have only invested an extra 40K which is nothing to them.

Of all the mitigating factors that lure young club players away from their clubs, the aussie rules teams are the only avenue that can be accosted by the GAA (and we all know what acronym that can stand for) and asked to fork over money for a club player making a lifestyle choice. While this kind of money would be pittance to a professinal club darbyo - on what grounds do they have to pay it, or even be asked for it? Id find it cheeky in the extreme to have the GAA club or county attempt to make money off my back if I decided that I wanted to give the professional sports choice a good go in australia, or even if I wanted to go across the water and play soccer. Any player is not a commodity or possession of the GAA - infact its quite the inverse, the GAA belongs to the members. We pay to be members of the association. If we decided to leave that association (which we pay to have the priviledge of membership) on what grounds can they even come close to justify putting their hand out for compensation?
Its interesting there is more debate about AFL clubs signing players than those lost to poor mentorism, alcohol, soccer, rugby, immigration and work movements within the country, and the irony is that the numbers lost to professional sport in australia are in the 10s and 20s compared to those lost to other factors.


I am of a completly different opinion. The GAA will lose some of there best players, YES, but what a great oppurtity for the young fellas. They get a chance to become a professional sportsman and make a living out of playing sport. We are only talking 3 or 4 players a year max, it is not going to destroy the GAA. If a member of my club was offered a trail I would be delighted for him and wishing hm all the best, yes it would be a loss to the club on the playin side, but i think everyone would be so proud of him and he club for producing such a star.
[/b]

Would you and your clubmates not be more proud of your hypothetical player if he made it on the Fermanagh senior team and turns out to be real star in the game ? A game that you and your club belong to and have a passionate involvement in. If you would be more proud of him playing Aussie rules on the other side of the world.....well......that asks more questions than it answers IMO.

This is a controlling opinion. We want you to think the way we do, and its a real shame if your own dreams and desires to try something dont fit in with the rest of our ideals down the club.
It doesnt matter of course that you might be good enough to make a real great living playing professional sports - what about your club!

DUBSFORSAM1

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2007, 05:53:24 PM »
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Darbyo - It penalises the players by reducing the chances of them having a professional sporting career..

No it doesn't, you can't be suggesting that AFL clubs wouldn't take Irish players because they have to pay an extra 40000 (which is only my example figure) it could be much lower in reality.Regardless of the amount, professional clubs with the resources of AFL teams wouldn't bat an eyelid about paying 30-150K for players and remember the top end is only for lads who have made it onto their senior team. I'm not an expert on the AR system but it is my understanding that Irish players are outside their draft system so paying a nominal fee for these players while not affecting their draft seems a fair compromise.
             If the AFL has the control to tell their clubs they can't recruit Irish players while the Comp. Rules is on then surely they can tell them they have to compensate the Irish clubs and counties if they are wholesale recruiting here. If I owned an AFL club I'd prefer pay 150K for the next Tadgh Kennelly rather than know he is in Ireland but I can't get him because of an end of season kick around between two different sporting organizations.


Yes they wouldn't be taking players for that sort of money - Approx 75-80k AUD -So you are telling me that teams who can get Irish players for nothing are going to volunteer to pay anything from 50-250k when they have absolutely no need to do it.....Clubs are limited to the amount of money they can spend....

The end of season kickabout is actually something the Aussies enjoyed as it was both a money spinner and gave the players the chance to play for their country which the players enjoyed...

darbyo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2007, 05:55:41 PM »
Puckoon, I agree with most of what you're saying and if you go back to my first post I said....
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we can't do anything about it. At best the GAA can look for compensation for the players club and county. I think one of the posters here alluded to this already making the comparison with Liverpool paying clubs like Cherry Orchard money for players.

So I agree that we don't have any real right to seek compensation I just think that the AFL might agree if asked by the GAA to do so as the money is small. And we(the GAA) are setting the foundations to be a good AR player so there is greater justification to look for compensation than we would from lets say soccer.

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Its interesting there is more debate about AFL clubs signing players than those lost to poor mentorism, alcohol, soccer, rugby, immigration and work movements within the country, and the irony is that the numbers lost to professional sport in australia are in the 10s and 20s compared to those lost to other factors.

This is a totally different issue, the point is, the players being sought by the AFL are only wanted because of the work of the GAA. If Martin Clarke didn't play GAA he wouldn't be earning money playing AR in Australia at the moment. Athletically there has to be soccer and rugby players here that are capable of playing AR but they don't seem to want them, why? Because they don't have the skills of their game, but our lads do, because of the work done by the GAA.

darbyo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2007, 06:03:31 PM »
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Yes they wouldn't be taking players for that sort of money - Approx 75-80k AUD -So you are telling me that teams who can get Irish players for nothing are going to volunteer to pay anything from 50-250k when they have absolutely no need to do it.....Clubs are limited to the amount of money they can spend....

Wouldn't they?, Collingwood I'm told are the biggest sports club in Australia, if they scouted two lads who they felt could make it as big stars in their game you're telling me they wouldn't pay 75-80K AUD. Maybe you're right but I'd doubt it. And the point is they wouldn't be volunteering this money but because of an agreement with the GAA they'd have to pay it.

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The end of season kickabout is actually something the Aussies enjoyed as it was both a money spinner and gave the players the chance to play for their country which the players enjoyed...

I'm sure they did but like I said would the clubs rather have access to quality players or watch an end of season Comp. Rules game.

Puckoon

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2007, 08:05:46 PM »
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Yes they wouldn't be taking players for that sort of money - Approx 75-80k AUD -So you are telling me that teams who can get Irish players for nothing are going to volunteer to pay anything from 50-250k when they have absolutely no need to do it.....Clubs are limited to the amount of money they can spend....

Wouldn't they?, Collingwood I'm told are the biggest sports club in Australia, if they scouted two lads who they felt could make it as big stars in their game you're telling me they wouldn't pay 75-80K AUD. Maybe you're right but I'd doubt it. And the point is they wouldn't be volunteering this money but because of an agreement with the GAA they'd have to pay it.
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The end of season kickabout is actually something the Aussies enjoyed as it was both a money spinner and gave the players the chance to play for their country which the players enjoyed...

I'm sure they did but like I said would the clubs rather have access to quality players or watch an end of season Comp. Rules game.

Darbyo, I really dont think they would. Id say whatever general manager that agreed to pay something for nothing wouldnt remain in his post very long.

darbyo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2007, 09:22:08 PM »
Maybe I'm not expressing myself properly or maybe you think that there is no way the AFL would come to a financial compensation package with the GAA, which is fair enough. But is it beyond the realms of possibility that the GAA and the AFL could sit down and agree that because of the similarities of the two sports a nominal fee should be paid to the players club by any AFL team that signs a player on a two year contract.
           The ruling by FIFA that DFS spoke about in relation to pro. soccer clubs paying amateur clubs for players is based on fairness, I'd imagine. That's to say that because the club invested so much time and effort to develop the player to that level it's only fair that they get something back.
The AFL was already able to keep the clubs at bay when the IR was going on so can they not force them to pay a bit. Again I think if I was in charge I'd rather pay a small fee for a player rather than being prevented from recruiting them at all. At the end of the day if we can't get compensation for players lost then I don't think there is any real 'upside' to this from a GAA perspective. Though I accept we could only get money with a goodwill attitude from the Aussies, and if they told us to take a hike then that would be the end of it.

stephenite

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2007, 10:19:43 PM »
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Yes they wouldn't be taking players for that sort of money - Approx 75-80k AUD -So you are telling me that teams who can get Irish players for nothing are going to volunteer to pay anything from 50-250k when they have absolutely no need to do it.....Clubs are limited to the amount of money they can spend....

Wouldn't they?, Collingwood I'm told are the biggest sports club in Australia, if they scouted two lads who they felt could make it as big stars in their game you're telling me they wouldn't pay 75-80K AUD. Maybe you're right but I'd doubt it. And the point is they wouldn't be volunteering this money but because of an agreement with the GAA they'd have to pay it.

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The end of season kickabout is actually something the Aussies enjoyed as it was both a money spinner and gave the players the chance to play for their country which the players enjoyed...

I'm sure they did but like I said would the clubs rather have access to quality players or watch an end of season Comp. Rules game.

That section I highlighted is ludicrous - why pay for something when you can get it for free? Can people stop bleating on about clubs getting compensation, please? It's not going to happen, and moreover it shouldn't happen for the sake of the GAA. The precedent something lie this would set is scary

darbyo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2007, 10:38:19 PM »
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That section I highlighted is ludicrous - why pay for something when you can get it for free?

Did you not read my last post at all, I said....
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Maybe I'm not expressing myself properly or maybe you think that there is no way the AFL would come to a financial compensation package with the GAA, which is fair enough. But is it beyond the realms of possibility that the GAA and the AFL could sit down and agree that because of the similarities of the two sports a nominal fee should be paid to the players club by any AFL team that signs a player on a two year contract

I've put in bold the question is it possible?, now maybe it isn't which I accept is fair enough. As for this comment....

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Can people stop bleating on about clubs getting compensation, please? It's not going to happen, and moreover it shouldn't happen for the sake of the GAA. The precedent something lie this would set is scary

that thin edge of the wedge argument can cover a multitude of issues it seems.

Puckoon

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2007, 10:59:11 PM »
Maybe I'm not expressing myself properly or maybe you think that there is no way the AFL would come to a financial compensation package with the GAA, which is fair enough. But is it beyond the realms of possibility that the GAA and the AFL could sit down and agree that because of the similarities of the two sports a nominal fee should be paid to the players club by any AFL team that signs a player on a two year contract.
           The ruling by FIFA that DFS spoke about in relation to pro. soccer clubs paying amateur clubs for players is based on fairness, I'd imagine. That's to say that because the club invested so much time and effort to develop the player to that level it's only fair that they get something back.
The AFL was already able to keep the clubs at bay when the IR was going on so can they not force them to pay a bit. Again I think if I was in charge I'd rather pay a small fee for a player rather than being prevented from recruiting them at all. At the end of the day if we can't get compensation for players lost then I don't think there is any real 'upside' to this from a GAA perspective. Though I accept we could only get money with a goodwill attitude from the Aussies, and if they told us to take a hike then that would be the end of it.


It is not outside the realms of possibility, but it is not something that the AFL will have any reason to even contemplate.

FIFAs ruling governs one sport, which is necessary due to the fact that every maradonna needs to start off somewhere, within the same sport. So therefore it makes sense that the feeder club garners some degree of compensation.

Darbyo you say that you'd rather pay a small fee than not get recruiting the player at all - the reality is that the GAA have no power to stop this recruitment, which is very much the response Id expect them to get if they attempted to extort a "compensation fee" for a player lost to AFL. Losing the international rules series will not dampen the drive of the AFL to enquire about Gaelic players.

Ive just re read your last post 7 times, and I feel like you are asking a question and then giving yourself the defeated answer at the end of the post! Now im confused.


darbyo

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2007, 11:12:17 PM »
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Ive just re read your last post 7 times, and I feel like you are asking a question and then giving yourself the defeated answer at the end of the post! Now im confused.

Sorry about any confusion but if we went back to my first post, I said there was nothing we could do about lads going to Australia except maybe agree a compensation package with the AFL for the club the lads leave. I agree with everyone who has questioned whether AFL clubs would pay this and I accept the reasons why. Initially I was just saying this was the best we could hope for as preventing them going wasn't an option.

Bogball XV

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Re: The 4 youngsters marked for AFL?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2007, 11:31:12 PM »
I think this is a full-blown crisis for the game. And I have no idea what to do about it.
I think we have to offer them an alternative - that alternative has to involve allowing them the opportunity to live the life of a professional athlete.  I know we can't afford the money that AFL clubs can offer (although my understanding is that it's pittance unless they make the grade, which is probably why Cavanagh turned it down).  I do think however that we can offer enough to ensure that lads get a chance at living the dream for a while.  We have enough money to waste on stupid unneeded stadia, maybe we should think about spending some of that money on the players, without who, we wouldn't have a game, no matter how many volunteers sweep the changing rooms and line the pitches.
The paid players would be essentially full time gaa coaches in schools etc, they'd be available for other duties within the county too - this would take up most of their mornings, the rest of their days could be spent on their training programme.  I would envisage a salary around 30K p.a for this - it won't make them rich, but it will adequately provide for them until they decide they've got to take a real job.  They would be helped in every way with skills for a future career, be it tradesmen to professional.  There could be a second tier of players too, those who wish to work part time, give them a grant of 15K p.a, just enough to help them fund their dedication to their sport.  The other inter-county players could be paid lower sums, up to 5K p.a.
The amount of each type of bursary to be allocated to each county could be decided by their league division, with hurling and football treated equally, in fact a little too much time on my hands I've come up with the following:

Bursary:     30,000          15,000          5,000          2,000
Division 1      4                   4                  15              10
Division 2      2                   2                   5               24
Division 3      1                   2                   4               26
Division 4      1                   1                   3               28

In total this would amount to 9.3M - if the govt were still going to input their 5M, the GAA could come up with a further 4.9M p.a (if we look at the money the GPA bring in, the GAA could easily bring in this amount for players payment from sponsors and commerical deals, oh yeah, a side benefit, this should remove the need for the GPA to exist anymore)  It's not particularly expensive and it might help stem the talent drain.  Another reason why I feel we should go down the pay for play route, is that our immigrant population will not be attracted to play our games unless there is the chance to play professionally (allbeit limited).  I know there are many flaws in the proposal above, sorry, make that, many, many flaws - but I also think it's easily affordable and maybe it's time we considered something along these lines?  We'd need to introduce things like balloon payments, centralised contracts, arbitration committees, standardised qualification criteria......

One other thing Dubsforsam has pointed out, getting money from ozzie clubs is an absolute non-runner, if they want to donate the money fine, I can't see it happening, but....  Btw, what would the club do with the money, build a new stand?