Is he worth it???

[lynchbhoy]

If I thought that there were vast swathes of people living in absolute poverty, going hungry by day and without a roof over their head by night, then I would say that that would dwarf any problems with the health service. But the notion that the health service is seen as the biggest problem should tell you that poverty and homelessness are minor issues in modern Ireland. The only way you could rationalise the poor being poorer than before is on the basis that they are poorer than the super rich who are clearly richer than in the past. This kind of relativistic nonsense would leave us believing that because everyone in (say) Biafra is poor that none of them are really 'poor' because no one is much richer than anyone else. Socialist nirvana! As for homelessness, why don't you go and ask your acquaintance from times past why the Health Board haven't found him a place to stay for the night? Chances are that he's been offered countless places but they have fascist rules like 'don't shoot up in the toilets' or 'don't beat the crap out of fellow tenants because they looked crooked at you'. The resources are there to take every homeless person off the street, check out the mission statement of the Peter McVerry Trust to see that it's no longer about just getting people off the streets, it's about building them sustainable lives, about getting them out of "the cycle of homelessness and mov[ing] towards independent living through the provision of a continuum of care services". Very laudable, and it should put to bed (pun unintended) the idea that governments are somehow to blame for these people's situation.

I did indeed ask my 'friend' about getting housing, and he was a list, awaiting somehting to become available.
Its all well and good talking about the poor and hungry, as I def dont know the figures, all I see is with my eyes in this area that I am not long in (workwise)  - and I suppose I normally choose to ignore such plight usualy. (never said I was a great person).
However it seems you dont know the full extent either - certainly our local parishes are always holding collections, fund raisers for homeless, svdp, hospices, hospitals, soup kitchens etc etc etc
Whatever the case and item on the agenda (poor, homeless, sick etc) do you honestly think the gov have done all they can to address these issues.
I see them making no flipping headway at all.
then theres the area that directly affects me/everyone - the state of the healthcare system/nursing home/hospitals etc in this country - its a disaster , and I have direct sources telling me what its like from the inside there.

so if you think that this gov , and prev governments and politicians have done a great job regarding all these things - and making the increase in salary the correct thing for them to do - then fair play to you.
you must either be one or related to one.


I agree with you on one thing - that we cannot compare bertie to other world leaders. He is in charge of a far smaller state, has far less responsibility - and there is no comparison towards these larger countries and their leaders who are on less money than our brass necked leader.
Prime ministers, presidents and taoiseachs are employed to run a country -they are paid for this.
they are not paid according to what money they may or may not receive in the future.

imo

[deiseach]

so if you think that this gov , and prev governments and politicians have done a great job regarding all these things - and making the increase in salary the correct thing for them to do - then fair play to you.

I never said the governments have done "a great job regarding all these things". I think the governments of the last two decades have done a darn good job in reducing poverty and homelessness. I remember the 1980's when there was 20% unemployment and cardboard cities abounded. These are small issues these days. Perhaps you think success is measured on a binary scale, where if there is one person homeless then we are all homeless. I don't.

you must either be one or related to one.

Ad hominem attacks. Classy.

I agree with you on one thing - that we cannot compare bertie to other world leaders. He is in charge of a far smaller state, has far less responsibility - and there is no comparison towards these larger countries and their leaders who are on less money than our brass necked leader.
Prime ministers, presidents and taoiseachs are employed to run a country -they are paid for this.
they are not paid according to what money they may or may not receive in the future.

imo

I've said we should compare them to other countries of similar size and wealth. I've thrown Finland, Austria and Denmark up as examples. I'd imagine they get paid a lot less than the Taoiseach. But I wouldn't say it's 20 times less than what Bertie receives.

[Bogball XV]

Everyone knew what you meant, being pedantic just seems to be the theme of this week.

It's not just pedantry, it reflects on how seriously you are expected to take the writer. Comparing the wages of the Chancellor of Germany with the Taoiseach is a pointless exercise if you choose not to take into account the potential future earnings of the respective incumbents. For example, Gerhard Schroeder had no sooner left office than he was able to take up a tasty (and corrupt) sinecure with a Russian gas consortium. Angela Merkel can anticipate a lucrative career on the lecture circuit as the first woman to be Chancellor, and the first 'Ossi', and a Protestant from the traditionally Catholic CDU/CSU. Until recently, the President of France - an unusual postion in Europe in being both head of state and head of government - earned a (relative) pittance of €90,000. It seems highly unlikely that that wouldn't take into account future earnings on the lecture circuit gravy train, something no PM of a small country could anticipate. More valid comparisions would be with the PM's of Finland or Austria, comparisions on which I'm sure Bertie would still fail abysmally. But then you wouldn't be able to talk in magnitudes of 20, would you?

Deiseach, if that's the best you can do, maybe it's time you threw in the towel? If Ahern was any good at his job, if he was the world leader he seems to think he is (see his party political broadcast on the day he got to speak at Westminster) then he would get his pick of positions after leaving here.  Unfortunately for him, the rest of the world can see (those that are aware of his existence) that he is 2-bit spiv, who is interested only in himself, and can barely string together an intelligble sentence.
Albert got himself onto the boards of numerous companies, but I suppose in fairness to Albert he had held postions above invoice entry in the Mater hospital prior to going into politics.  In fact most fomer Irish taoisigh (bar Charlie for obvious reasons) have gone on to hold a string of positions of note both in the corporate and diplomatic worlds.

[deiseach]

Albert got himself onto the boards of numerous companies, but I suppose in fairness to Albert he had held postions above invoice entry in the Mater hospital prior to going into politics.  In fact most fomer Irish taoisigh (bar Charlie for obvious reasons) have gone on to hold a string of positions of note both in the corporate and diplomatic worlds.

It's pretty easy to disprove this statement. I doubt if they were handing out corporate beanos to Eamon de Valera, who remained in active politics into his ninties. John A Costello was a practising barrister until shortly before his death. Sean Lemass was a very sick man when he retired from politics. Garret Fitzgerald is famously not-rich, his worthless shares in Guinness Peat Aviation being the touchstone of his career post politics. No one would touch Charlie Haughey. Albert Reynolds is able to lay claim to a genuinely statemanlike achievement. Even then, his achievements seem to be based on self-aggrandisement than any sort of substance. John Bruton's plum is not the kind that would be considered typical - you certainly wouldn't want to be relying on it. Which leaves the famously avuncular Jack Lynch, who seems to have done well out of directorships, and Cosgrave père et fils, both famously, uh, unavuncular. I fail to see how the various Taosigh/Presidents of the Executive Council had a burgeoning career post-politics based on occupancy of the post.

And I say this again: let's compare like with like. I'll cheerfully admit Bertie is way overpaid relative to comparable PM's. But there's no need to overegg the pudding by comparing him to the top political heavyweights (did someone mention Herr Kohl?) whose post is, well, beyond comparision.

[Mentalman]

Again, let's keep the comparisions valid. Finland? Austria? Denmark? I'm sure Bertie will look vulgar by comparision.

I think the country we are most analgous to, population wise, is Lithuania? Given their recent travailles I suppose it won't be fair to use them. So the next is Finland, far more suitable, and yes Bertrand's salary is far in excessive of the Finnish premiers. These figures were mentioned on Pat Kenny, so I'm not sure, I'll try to dig them out, be back in a tick.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

The concept of that total incompetent bumbling idiot earning over 300k in taxpayers money is incomprehensible.....what is even more incomprehensible is that the Irish people voted him back in even knowing how useless he is....combine that with the likes of O'Dea, Cullen, Roche, The Bull etc and the money they are earning is again a disgrace...

To try and equate our "finest   politicians" to the public sector is an insult to the public sector where the level of incompetence wouldn't be tolerated at all.....in fact it wouldn't be tolerated in most "intelligent" democracy's....

Then again our civil servants earn substantially more than at the same level in the UK also so its a case of Dumb (Bertie Ahern), Dumber (his cabinet) and Dumbest (the electorate) allowing it all to happen...

[deiseach]

I think the country we are most analgous to, population wise, is Lithuania? Given their recent travailles I suppose it won't be fair to use them. So the next is Finland, far more suitable, and yes Bertrand's salary is far in excessive of the Finnish premiers. These figures were mentioned on Pat Kenny, so I'm not sure, I'll try to dig them out, be back in a tick

Yep, Finland would definitely be a good example. Five million people, rural population with a primate city, colonial past, fractitious relationship with said colonial power(s). Lithuania doesn't really fit in as a truly developed economy yet. I couldn't find figures for Finland's PM, so this will be interesting.

[deiseach]

Bloody hell, it shouldn't be this difficult to find out the salary of the Prime Minister of Finland. I did find this though . . .

Finland's Prime Minister ends relationship via SMS

[lynchbhoy]

so if you think that this gov , and prev governments and politicians have done a great job regarding all these things - and making the increase in salary the correct thing for them to do - then fair play to you.

I never said the governments have done "a great job regarding all these things". I think the governments of the last two decades have done a darn good job in reducing poverty and homelessness. I remember the 1980's when there was 20% unemployment and cardboard cities abounded. These are small issues these days. Perhaps you think success is measured on a binary scale, where if there is one person homeless then we are all homeless. I don't.

you must either be one or related to one.

Ad hominem attacks. Classy.

I agree with you on one thing - that we cannot compare bertie to other world leaders. He is in charge of a far smaller state, has far less responsibility - and there is no comparison towards these larger countries and their leaders who are on less money than our brass necked leader.
Prime ministers, presidents and taoiseachs are employed to run a country -they are paid for this.
they are not paid according to what money they may or may not receive in the future.
imo

I've said we should compare them to other countries of similar size and wealth. I've thrown Finland, Austria and Denmark up as examples. I'd imagine they get paid a lot less than the Taoiseach. But I wouldn't say it's 20 times less than what Bertie receives.

apologies for the 'classy' 'attack' - its not a go at you, I just cannot fathom why you think bertie et all could deserve such high salaries, let alone those massive increases.
I think the govs of the past two decades have done a bad job RELATIVE to the economic environment.
the Gov in the 80's had no money, no industry, high unemployment, low enough homelessness and low ranks of hungry.
The health system was relatively as bad.
Now
given the increased wealth and industry, there are proportionately the same monies and bottom eline beds/houses/soup kitchens for more people than there were in the 80's.
I cant see how that is anything other than a step in the wrong direction.
At best, the successive govs have peddled to stand still.Certainly have not eaten into the problems.

Finally- comparing Ireland with finland or other country of equal population seems right.
But given the salary Bertie earns, he is in the comparison bracket with the heads of state of the world superpowers - USA, UK, Germany etc - and his remit and success rate certainly do not seem to me to be worthy of th emoney or rise he is getting (or most other people according to quickly taken straw/opinion polls in papers, TV, radio etc)

best of luck to ya, but I cant see where you are coming from at all .
Perspectives eh.

[Mentalman]

Bloody hell, it shouldn't be this difficult to find out the salary of the Prime Minister of Finland. I did find this though . . .

Finland's Prime Minister ends relationship via SMS

Desieach, can't find it online, like yourself. Will see if I can listen back to yesterday's Today show to get them, but then again that was contributed from a listener. Found the Finnish President's figures though, "The President's annual salary is €126,000, and the amount provided for expenses is €171,000 euro"...that opens a whole can of worms on expenses - http://www.presidentti.fi/netcomm/news/ShowArticle.asp?intNWSAID=34049&LAN=EN

[Bogball XV]

Quick post:
he earns double norwegian and danish pm salaries - can't find finnish, maybe if we typed in suomi or whatever they speak?

I'm working on the jobs for the boys thing really starting in ireland post 1970 BTW - Dev would have been too principled anyway, Lemass whilst he would have been in demand was ill

Presidents:
Childers - died in office
O'Dalaigh - ill on retirement
Hillery - I don't think he'd have been in too much demand, did he ever leave the park?
Robinson - all sorts of UN jobs

Taoisigh:
Cosgrave - don't know and don't have time to go searching.
Lynch - pile of positions
Haughey - ahem
Fitzy - GPA, could have done lots more, but decided after GPA disaster to retreat to the academic life, but then money was never really Garrett the Good's thing.
Reynolds - as many directorships as you'd want, also did a spell as advisor to Musharraf
Bruton - multi millionaire pre politics - EU ambassador to the states
Ahern - spell in the Joy/Thornhill for tax evasion


Other notables such as Sutherland have done pretty well for themselves too.

[deiseach]

the Gov in the 80's had no money, no industry, high unemployment, low enough homelessness and low ranks of hungry.
The health system was relatively as bad.
Now
given the increased wealth and industry, there are proportionately the same monies and bottom eline beds/houses/soup kitchens for more people than there were in the 80's.

I simply don't agree that there was less homelessness or hunger in the 1980's. You admit that you are basing your view on anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal observations say otherwise. And never the twain shall meet.

I never said they were worth the money. But let's say the Finnish PM is on one-quarter of Bertie's salary. This would be outrageous. But the Finns could look at the German Chancellor and say 'hey, the German economy is 20 times bigger than that of Finland, why is our PM not on one-twentieth of the salary?" This wouldn't be very insightful, so I don't see why it should apply to Ireland.

[deiseach]

Fitzy - GPA, could have done lots more, but decided after GPA disaster to retreat to the academic life, but then money was never really Garrett the Good's thing.

Neither for himself - or anyone else.

[lynchbhoy]

the Gov in the 80's had no money, no industry, high unemployment, low enough homelessness and low ranks of hungry.
The health system was relatively as bad.
Now
given the increased wealth and industry, there are proportionately the same monies and bottom eline beds/houses/soup kitchens for more people than there were in the 80's.

I simply don't agree that there was less homelessness or hunger in the 1980's. You admit that you are basing your view on anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal observations say otherwise. And never the twain shall meet.

I never said they were worth the money. But let's say the Finnish PM is on one-quarter of Bertie's salary. This would be outrageous. But the Finns could look at the German Chancellor and say 'hey, the German economy is 20 times bigger than that of Finland, why is our PM not on one-twentieth of the salary?" This wouldn't be very insightful, so I don't see why it should apply to Ireland.

dont disagree - but anecdotal apart from the differing economic climates . No big deal though.

I wouldnt think it (relative salary comparisons) should apply to Ireland apart form the fact that bertie earns more than Merkal etc
If he was earling less, I dont think it would be as hard to stomach.

Animal farm-esque I suppose. Feck all we joe public can do (including not voting etc, I voted FF myself !).

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Fitzy - GPA, could have done lots more, but decided after GPA disaster to retreat to the academic life, but then money was never really Garrett the Good's thing.

Neither for himself - or anyone else.

Well it was hard especially as he was trying to rescue the economy after the total f*ck up caused by FF in the 1977 election campaign and the economic recession of the 80/81