Cork players threaten strike over selectors issue

[Frank Casey]

This is from todays examiner (www.irishexaminer.com). Looks like its getting to pee or get off the pot time. If the issue isn't resolved the county board can play for time and withdraw from the competition or they can go nuclear, naming a panel and looking for suspensions if they don't turn up. Should be an interesting week.

03 January 2008

Cork's clash with LIT rescheduled as players' strike goes on

By Michael Moynihan

THE Waterford Crystal Senior Hurling Tournament game between Cork and Limerick Institute of Technology scheduled for Sunday next has been rescheduled as attempts to resolve the stand-off on Leeside continue. The game is now fixed for next Thursday under lights in Páirc Uí Rinn.  Both Cork senior squads have withdrawn from inter-county activity, but while the footballers are on a team holiday in South America at the moment, the hurlers have the early-season Waterford Crystal tournament to contend with.  It is not the first game affected by the stand-off — the hurlers had a pre-Christmas challenge game against UCC called off as a result of the row — but it is the first official fixture threatened by the dispute between the players and the county board.

While there have been no formal discussions between the two parties since the footballers left, informal discussions are being pursued in an attempt to resolve the impasse.  If the game is not played next Thursday, however, then Cork will not face any sanctions from the Munster Council. "We'd be optimistic that a resolution can be reached," said Munster Council spokesman yesterday.  "To that end the teams have agreed to play Thursday night.  "If a team doesn't fulfil a fixture then the regulations provide that they're excluded from the rest of the competition, but there are no repercussions for the championship later in the year, and there aren't any fines imposed either. "Every year we have a team that isn't able to participate — Limerick are away so they can't play in the Waterford Crystal, the Cork and Kerry footballers are on holidays as well. We're quite used to teams pulling out of the secondary competitions, given the time of year, and their reasons for pulling out wouldn't need to be outlined in detail to us."
However, if Cork select a panel for the game and those players do not make themselves available, then they may be in line for suspension. The GAA rules provide the option of punishing players who do not turn out for their county when selected.

[Zulu]

The Cork county board played politics with their IC teams and they underestimated the players resolve. This is a mess of their own making, though I think the players could have initially taken a less militant stance also. Nevertheless the players are correct to demand the best possible back room support and the motivation for the county boards action has to be questioned. They then compound their initial mistake by appointing a football management team that no-one in Cork would regard as acceptable. Whatever about the hurlers the footballers ambitions for 08 have been seriously damaged.

[orangeman]

Somebody is going to lose face here and I don't think the players are going to back down - as far as they are concerned Billy has been shafted - Billy is the Messiah who last year took them to the promised land only to meet God's team in the final !!

He took them on other trips to the land of milk,honey and Sam Maguire before this as well - so you just simply don't piss on a man like this and expect the players to turn thre other cheek now can you ??

[Frank Casey]

There is more to this that just loyalty to Billy. There has been a history of disharmony between the county board and the inter county panels. Billy's departure and they way it was dealt with was just the straw that broke the camels back. Even as a Kerryman I have to disagree with his treatment.

IMO this boils down to one thing - respect. The intercounty panels in Cork feel as if they get no real recognition from the county board and in particular the football panel is regarded by some elements of the Cork hierarchy as a distraction that could be done without.

[Tatler Jack]

IMO this boils down to one thing - respect

.

Maybe but respect is earned not demanded. The change in system of appointing selectors was not just the view of the county board executive but was voted on twice by all county board delegates. Thats democracy and the players should have accepted it. Of course there is a lot more going on and players (and GPA), Morgan, County Board must alll accept the blame, It is interesting that the previous strike by Cork players was after they had a bad year and many in Cork felt it was a way of deflecting the blame off themselves, Its a bit the same now as the hurlers had a poor enough 2007 and while the footballers got to the AI final they failed to give Kerry a game - in fact they were lucky to get to the final and I would say there were 7 or 8 better teams last year than Cork.

As for the supposed issue about appointing selectors - does it really matter. Morgan had selectors who had no power and little enough football knowledge. Holland has been allowed a veto over the appointed selectors so one assumes he is happy with them. The problem is Billy - great servant to Cork but now belives the county football team is his and his alone. He is answerable to no one, has pissed off the local media and while I do not doubt his committment I and a lot more feel he is not the person to revive Cork football. If Cork were playing in Ulster they wouldnot get next or near a Munster final.

Then there are those that see this as a chance to settle scores with Frank Murphy but "sin scéal eile"

[Zulu]

I agree Morgan wasn't the man to lead Cork to an AI but I don't believe that any of the top managers in either code would accept selectors being hoisted upon them. For example Teddy MacCarthy has had no involvement in football management since retiring, so what exactly is he bringing to the party? And how can the players have a good working relationship with a management team that allowed themselves go forward in the middle of the strike? The players will look on these guys as CB lackeys whether it is the case or not. The whole thing is a mess but the CB created it by going about their business in an underhand manner.

[stephenite]

IThe whole thing is a mess but the CB created it by going about their business in an underhand manner.

Forgive my ignorance, but is it not a case of a massive majority of all club delegates backing the decision by the County Board?

[Zulu]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it not a case of a massive majority of all club delegates backing the decision by the County Board?

That's correct but there was little or no debate on this before it was put before the delegates, the CB had to know how the players would react to this but went ahead anyway. Cork clubs are sick of the attitude of Cork county managers to club fixtures and the availability of their players, which is fair enough. And the CB wanted to get rid of Billy Morgan and get back the power they lost in the last strike. These factors and the fact that many club delegates will vote whatever way the executive tell them and not necessarily how their club mandates them has led to this majority vote.
                The propensity of county managers to demand the cancellation of club fixtures and player availability are genuine concerns but they should be sorted out by discussion and agreement between county managements and the CB, not by getting CB selectors onto the management teams of county teams.

[stephenite]

I find it very hard to believe that clubs in Cork are willing to blindly led by the County Board executive to the extreme of both Senior teams going on strike - if the clubs were not supportive of the County Boards stance there players would not still be on strike.

I find it so hard to believe as to be 99.9% sure you're talking out your hole to be honest

I for one would be fully supportive of the County Boards decision on this one, not that I agree with selectos been forced upon Managers but that the vote was taken and the club delegates knew fine well what they were voting for and what the reaction would be, if we start allowing management team selections to be dominated by players we may as well all give up.
You mention that many delegates vote contrary to any mandate given to them by their club, is there proof of this? Surely it's not done by secret ballot so would be fairly easy to gauge which percentage are rogue voters hellbent on provoking poor auld Sean Og and his ilk

[Zulu]

I find it so hard to believe as to be 99.9% sure you're talking out your hole to be honest

Always good to start a discussion with a pig ignorant comment like that. I'd also wager I know a bit more about the goings on in Cork than you do. In saying that since I'm not on the Cork county board, a member of either panel or a Cork club delegate, I can only give my opinion based on my knowledge of the scene down there and from what I'm told by friends closer to the heart of it.

I find it very hard to believe that clubs in Cork are willing to blindly led by the County Board executive

It is generally club delegates that vote on these things not clubs (I know I've never been asked my opinion before my club delegate voted on anything) and many of these lads have been involved in committees for years and have built up relationships with other lifelong committee men like Frank or Bob Honahan,many would also have ambitions to climb the administrative ladder. As a result many (not all) can be easily convinced to vote a certain way (doesn't pay to cross Frank if you want to progress), add in the fact that many club delegates were keen to take down the county managers a peg or two and it is clear that a vote from this group wasn't necessarily made in the best interests of the Cork senior teams.

You mention that many delegates vote contrary to any mandate given to them by their club, is there proof of this?

No I didn't I said this........

the fact that many club delegates will vote whatever way the executive tell them and not necessarily how their club mandates them

So to clear this up for you as it seems you don't actually read other peoples posts I said delegates may not vote as mandated by their clubs not that they never do. And I know that three friends of mine heavily involved in their respective clubs have told me that there was no debate on this issue in any of their clubs. So it appears that some clubs never mandated their delegates one way or the other, and the players unnecessarily militant stance probably had delegates backs up for the second vote. As is the case in most disputes the blame for this mess is shared between both parties but the Cork board must take most of the blame as they went down this path not for the best of Cork GAA but to wrestle back power from the players.
                                  Feel free to respond Stephenite if you have any issue with what I've said but keep your insults to yourself as I've no intention in getting into a childish debate peppered with personal abuse.  

[stephenite]

OK, I'd be 99.9% sure you're talking rubbish, lying, or just making it up. Using some sort of mock outrage at language used on an Internet discussion forum is just a childish attemt to deflect from what I was getting at, pathetic.

I do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates - and upon checking this with a guy who is on the committee of a prominent Cork City GAA club he has confirmed that as far as he is aware the majority of clubs have discussed it and his club for one are happy for the County Board to resolve the issue without being seen to climbdown in the eyes of the public. He went on to tell that there is great anger amongst the grass roots ( a well worn term this last few months) at the players for their actions and disgust at what they perceive is an attempt to further undermine the well established basic structures of the GAA in Cork. They had support for the first strike, they think this is one is an over reaction and think that the players will eventually back down.

You're second ridiculous section regarding the fact I deliberatley misquoted is as above completley childish and ridiculous - you knew full well what I was saying and the fact that it was not quoted word for word does not mean my original point was incorrect or wrong.

I am happy to continue this debate also and for the record "you're talking out your hole" hardly constitutes personal abuse in my opinion, I will tone it down if only not to give you any further opportunity to try and deflect from what I am trying to say using you're holier than thou attitude to distract from the real point.

[orangeman]

A few guys here who are anti Billy have said that Billy is not the man to revive Cork football - Forgive my ignorance but did Cork not get to the AI final last year ?? But for a brilliant Kerry team ( which history will show is as good as the great IF NOT BETTER than the great Kerry team of the late 70's and 80's ) and a jaywalking display by the goalkeeper,Cork would have been in contention.

Ok if you don't like Billy on a personal level, just say so - but give him some credit for his wonderful achievements !

There are few men who have given as much to Cork football and the GAA in general - when you have contributed half as much then, you might have just cause to criticise him !

I hate it when a Gael like Billy is just dismissed as being a trouble maker etc etc by people who aren't in a position to criticise.

[Zulu]

Sephenite, it wasn't rightous indignation or mock outrage on my part I simply prefer to discuss issues in a mature fashion and beginning your post by telling another poster that they are talking through their hole (especially when you are dependent on information from a friend) is immature and not conducive to an adult debate. I hope I've made my point and you can accept that, so I'll return to the issue itself.
                         However I'm not sure if there is much point in discussing this with you as you have repeated two points in both your posts namely....

I'd be 99.9% sure you're talking rubbish, lying, or just making it up

and

I do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates

So it seems you won't even entertain the possibility that any of the points I have made could be valid and based on facts. You go on to say that....

I am happy to continue this debate also and for the record "you're talking out your hole" hardly constitutes personal abuse in my opinion, I will tone it down if only not to give you any further opportunity to try and deflect from what I am trying to say using you're holier than thou attitude to distract from the real point.

Yet you have made no points other than to say.....

I do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates

Which you say is backed up by a friend in Cork GAA circles, i.e you have not made one even semi-factual point in this debate so far but have only given your opinion that you don't believe the scenario I have painted. So how am I trying to distract from the real point when you have made none. I'm the only one(so far) who has made any kind of argument as to why I hold my position, it is you who hasn't engaged in the debate preferring to simply cover your ears and shout I don't believe you, your lying.
                                        This friend of yours who claims that the grassroots are against the players sounds like some of the lads here who claimed the grassroots were against the GPA. And like them he can't know what everyone thinks, I have plenty of friends involved in the GAA down in Cork and while very few support the players strike none of them support the CB. The general opinion of people I know is that both  sides should grow up and get this sorted out. In saying that to a man they all disagree with what the board did and how it was achieved, everyone I spoke to on this issue felt that the board pulled a stroke, they manipulated the ill feeling that club delegates had for the county management teams to get this through. Like I said in a previous post I know of at least three clubs who didn't debate this issue, this is a fact whether you believe me is neither here nor there.
                       Cork club delegates voted to support this motion twice, that is a fact but the process and motivations of individuals can only be speculated on by you or me, your opinion is no more factually correct than my own in this regard. But from all I can deduce from my sources, which are fairly numerous and from my own experience in Cork GAA this stinks of underhanded dealings designed to decrease IC management power in Cork while increasing CB power. CB members are elected to do what's best for the GAA in a fair and open manner this hasn't happened here. However I'd accept that the players have gone about their business in the wrong way and I feel the strike was the wrong move but I'd strongly suspect that they would have been left with no other option by this board anyway, it seems to be the only thing they understand.

[Zulu]

There are few men who have given as much to Cork football and the GAA in general - when you have contributed half as much then, you might have just cause to criticise him !

Well we may as well just pack up this board if you can't criticise people unless you have played in and coached teams to AI finals. I would and have heavily criticsed Billy over the past few years for his handling of the Cork football panel, that is my opinion based on what I have seen, it is nothing personal and I have never resorted to any kind of personal abuse towards Billy. I know Orangeman that Billy is a bit of a hero of yours but while I accept he has done wonderful things for Cork football I feel he has done a pretty poor job with a talented bunch of players these past few years.

[TBT]

I find it very hard to believe that clubs in Cork are willing to blindly led by the County Board executive to the extreme of both Senior teams going on strike - if the clubs were not supportive of the County Boards stance there players would not still be on strike.

I find it so hard to believe as to be 99.9% sure you're talking out your hole to be honest

I for one would be fully supportive of the County Boards decision on this one, not that I agree with selectos been forced upon Managers but that the vote was taken and the club delegates knew fine well what they were voting for and what the reaction would be, if we start allowing management team selections to be dominated by players we may as well all give up.
You mention that many delegates vote contrary to any mandate given to them by their club, is there proof of this? Surely it's not done by secret ballot so would be fairly easy to gauge which percentage are rogue voters hellbent on provoking poor auld Sean Og and his ilk

Stephenite,
I'm from Cork and your ignorance on this matter is staggering. No club in Cork would dare be openly hostile to the CCB because of the consequences wrt  being starved of championship fixtures, underage players having difficulty making sides,having to travel to inconvenient locations for championship games. This is well established. In Cork, the CCB proposes policy and the clubs accept with out question. This is the tradition. To suggest that the managment team selectiosn is dominated by players is simply idiotic. The players want nothing to do with the selection of management sides. This is the managers prerogative in every other County. Having the present system in place means that it's simply impossible for a good managment side to be put in place. Case in point- the current senior football management. It's a joke selection. Its not beyond the bounds o possibility that if this isn't solved that nextyear the CCB will be unable to find a management for the hurling side. Nobody with a braincell would touch the job.