'UK's greatest wit'

[stephenite]

A Roscommon family with Dutch and native Gaelic ancestry is hardly impeccably Anglo-Irish.

I thought he was from Mayo Turlough?     

[Turlough O Carolan]

A Roscommon family with Dutch and native Gaelic ancestry is hardly impeccably Anglo-Irish.

I thought he was from Mayo Turlough?     

For some strange reason he left the place of his birth, scenic Castlerea, for a dreary lakeside view near Cong. Let's face it the man had some faults although being British wasn't one of them

[turk]

Most of the uphill gardeners that I am aware of have fecked off to England (Oscar, the gay one from boyzone, the gay one from westlife, Henry Kelly, Graham Norton, Evil Genius, etc etc). Crikey, is there anyone left?

PS. Was only joking about Evil Genius

Wait now! Henry Kelly was as straight as a nail!

[whiskeysteve]

The Chuckle Brothers - Steve Staunton and John Delaney

"To me, To you, To me, To you"

[Orior]

My sincerest apologies to Henry. I still listen to his classics radio programme. Good stuff.

[delboy]

From Act One of The Hostage, 1958 (Brendan Behan)

Pat: He was an Anglo-Irishman.
Meg: In the name of God, what's that?
Pat: A Protestant with a horse.
Ropeen: Leadbetter.
Pat: No, no, an ordinary Protestant like Leadbetter, the plumber in the back parlour next door, won't do, nor a Belfast orangeman, not if he was as black as your boot.
Meg: Why not?
Pat: Because they work. An Anglo-Irishman only works at riding horses, drinking whiskey, and reading double-meaning books in Irish at Trinity College.

[ziggysego]

The Chuckle Brothers - Steve Staunton and John Delaney

"To me, To you, To me, To you"

Ah now Steve, you wouldn't be trying to pass them off as being from the UK now would you?

[whiskeysteve]

anything goes in the realms of farce, ziggy

[Evil Genius]

My point is that when the union took place between England and Scotland, a new identity was created to accomodate both identities. When the union took place between Britain and Ireland, it was simply assumed that the Irish would accept the existing arrangement. Some did - but most didn't. We'll never know if Wilde was one of them or not, unless you have some firmer evidence than a list of bullet points that would comfortably accomodate me.

The title of this thread is "The UK's Greatest Wit".

Wilde was unquestionably a subject of the UK throughout his entire life - irrespective of his personal views in the Union (whatever they were).

Moreover, his whole literary canon and style was quintessentially "British" i.e. set in the upper echelons of London society etc, using language, characterisation and scenes which are as far removed from the quintessential Irishness of the likes of Yeats, Synge, Joyce etc as can be imagined.

He was, of course, Irish. But he was a peculiar type of Irishman, known at the time as "Anglo-Irish". Perhaps modern day Irish people may not like or even value such people, but I would hope at least that their existence and achievements could be acknowledged for what they were.

Otherwise, their treatment in the modern day Irish Republic risks falling into one or more of the following three categories:
1. Derided for their faults and excesses (only);
2. Ignored;
3. Claimed as exclusively "Irish", but only when it suits.

And considering the seminal role played by so many such people in the Gaelic Revival, it is not just misleading to misrepresent and/or airbrush them out of history, but ignorant and mean-spirited (imo).

 

[whiskeysteve]

Who are these derided Anglo-Irish individuals you speak of?

[deiseach]

He was, of course, Irish. But he was a peculiar type of Irishman, known at the time as "Anglo-Irish". Perhaps modern day Irish people may not like or even value such people, but I would hope at least that their existence and achievements could be acknowledged for what they were.

Otherwise, their treatment in the modern day Irish Republic risks falling into one or more of the following three categories:
1. Derided for their faults and excesses (only);
2. Ignored;
3. Claimed as exclusively "Irish", but only when it suits.

What tosh. The 'Irish Republic' needs no tips from supporters of the Union, a Union that has failed over two centuries to fully integrate Irishness into its identity, on how to create a polity that accomodates all its citizens with comfort.

[Evil Genius]

Nationality - UK;

"I am Irish, not English" - a Wilde Quote

No-one, but no-one, has ever asserted that Wilde was English. You seem to have severe difficulty distinguishing between "English" and "British" - the two are not the same, even if some English people (ignorantly) interchange the two. As a subject of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland all his life, Wilde was unquestionably "British" (or "United Kingdomish", if you prefer!).

Perhaps you are being confused by the more precise (and correct) description of Wilde as being "Anglo-Irish"? This does not mean e.g. that he had one eye/ear/leg/lung etc which was wholly English, with the other wholly Irish. Rather, it means he was an Irishman, born and brought up in Ireland, whose background and heritage originally derived from the English Establishment who colonised and ruled Ireland, from Dublin Castle, for three or four centuries.

Since the height of their influence - as it happens in Wilde's time - such people have all but disappeared. Some became assimilated, some returned to England/UK, some carried on in reduced circumstances in the Free State until their demise etc. Wilde's position and identity in the late 19th Century was not challenged and as it happens, throughout his adult life, he increasingly veered towards the "Anglo" side of his background, until at the height of his fame, this greatly outweighed his "Irish" side (that's Irish in the Gaelic/Hibernian/Republican sense, btw)

Education - Portora Royal School, Trinity College Dublin, Magdalen College Oxford;

Hardly the first or last Irishman to be educated at home and abroad.

PRS - Founded in 1608 by King James I of England (James VI of Scotland) to educate the sons of the colonisers and Planters etc;

TCD - Founded in 1592 by Queen Elizabeth I of England, "for my Protestant subjects";

Magdalen - Founded in 1448. In Oxford (duh!)

Such institutions are the very heart of the Anglo-Irish establishment; as such, they both defined and reinforced the Anglo-Irish identity of alumni such as Wilde.

Wife and Children - English;

Constance Lloyd herself had Irish parents. Hardly makes a difference to Wilde's nationality.

Indeed. Wilde was an Irish subject of the UK. Therefore he was both Irish and British.

Residence - After leaving Oxford in 1878, he only visited Ireland three times (all briefly), before his death in 1900 - the rest was in England (or exile in France);

Family were in debt in Ireland. Both mother and brother moved to England shortly after Oscar. One of their first acts was to set up the Irish Literary Society. Many Irishmen and women went to America and England and never set foot on Irish soil again. Didn't make them less Irish. Wilde had no family left in Ireland. His sister died young, and his two step sisters were tragically burned in a fire.

Why he left Ireland is not relevant, rather it is where he went and how he lived/behaved when he got there. Wilde might have gone to Paris, New York, Australia or a whole host of other places. Instead, he made his way to the very heart of his English Establishment background, where he embraced the lifestyle and Society with gusto. The fact that he did this as an Irishman, founding an ILS, doesn't change that.

Social Circles - British Aristocracy;

You mean the social circle he mocked. The English country gentelman galloping after the fox. The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable.

Now that was hardly a social circle he identified with. He did however spend his time in London with the Irish Literary Society - and you'll note they didn't call it the Anglo-Irish Literary society.

Wilde was anything but uncritical or undiscriminating. Consequently, he was quite capable of enthusiastically adopting many aspects of the Establishment within which he moved, such as the Arts, whilst mocking other aspects of it (e.g. Sports). Just as he was capable of embracing (literally!) Lord Alfred Douglas (a would-be artist), whilst hating Douglas's father, the Marquess of Queensbury (a Racing, Hunting and Boxing enthusiast).

And no, he didn't call it the Anglo-Irish Literary Society. There was no need to, since it was self-evidently a Society for Irish people in England!

Literary Work - Quintessentially English/British (e.g. "The Importance of Being Earnest", "The Picture of Dorian Gray", "Lady Windermere's Fan" etc.)

The influence of Irish mythology, which both his parents specialised in, runs deeply through his works. Wilde also did say that while the English destroyed our landscape, the Irish made their language beautiful.

Sounds like an Irishman to me.

Irish mythology may well run through some of his works - as am Irishman, this is hardly to be unexpected. However, is there anything in English Literature which more typifies the character and mores of late 19th Century English Society than the "Handbag" scene, so memorably portrayed in film by Dame Edith Evans, from "The Importance of Being Earnest"?

His whole major works are peopled by aristos in evening dress, with carriages, cigars, Society Balls, politicians etc, dealing pretty  much exclusively with their concerns and activities. He concentrated on these because these were what he knew and their locations were where he chose to live.

Consequently, Oscar Wilde was the very epitome of the Anglo-Irish culture which existed in his time; he embodied it, reflected it, embraced it and yes, sometimes mocked it. The fact that the Establishment within which it existed was ultimately to reject him, made him no less Anglo-Irish than e.g. Parnell's rejection around the same time by the Irish people made him any less Irish.

Wilde is a rare example of someone who can be celebrated by both Britain and Ireland. Live with it.

[Declan]

Not really that bothered whether he's described as Irish/Anglo Irish/ UK et etc

Wilde was an Irish subject of the UK. Therefore he was both Irish and British.

I've seen a lot of shite posted on the UK/Irish/political threads but this one takes the biscuit altogether. I'm sure my grandfather and his colleagues would have been only too delighted to be told that they were British

[whiskeysteve]

Evil Genius do us a favour and get off your soapbox

Nothing more irksome than a pedantic west brit

[GalwayBayBoy]

http://www.blather.net/shitegeist/2007/10/blather_presents_irelands_greatest_wits.htm