Catholic Church suspends gay priest

[whiskeysteve]

Well as leaders of the catholic faith

Why would they be seen as leaders of the catholic faith. Historically maybe but nowadays I doubt it.to my mind they are ministering to their flock etc rather than "leading" them

What would your definition of effeminate be?

Well their role has been watered down then
Would they not be providing a leadership role if they had the ability to do so? I'd say people are embarrassed with them but realise someone has to say mass, do christenings, funerals etc. It's not the type of thing people feel comfortable speaking up about. Some priests are still leaders in their communities btw and play a real positive role in their ministry so I'm not trying to tar every priest with this accusation.

Skull where is this groundswell of effeminate priests?? Most priests tend to be softly spoken, polite and gentle enough and it may not even be their natural disposition (imagine you were pretending to be a priest, how would you act?). Men of faith often have a 'saintly' manner, or at least tend to portray one, its a stereotype that rightly or wrongly people act up to or expect, even unconciously.

I'm not sure what 'leadership' qualities you would expect of a priest, should they be strong, manly, herioc leaders in their daily battles like visiting the elderly, giving communion, organising parish fund raisers? They aren't warrior monks for heavens sake

You obviously seem to be embarrassed/bothered with effeminity yourself.

Personally I don't see very many 'womanly' priests about, not by your definition.

Mountains out of molehills my son, go in peace

[Harps 21]

On a general note, it is sad that so many in our modern society continue to rehearse the old "peado-priest" stereotype or try to insinuate that many of our clergy are homosexuals.  The facts, inspite of the barely veiled media inspired anti-Catholicsm of the UK/Irish media, are that a Catholic priest is less likely than a general member of the public to have either engaged in child abuse, or to be gay.  By no means am I trying to defend the abusers, one case of clerical abuse is one case too many, but I'm trying to show that the modern stigmatised stereotype is a terrible falsehood.

[SammyG]

On a general note, it is sad that so many in our modern society continue to rehearse the old "peado-priest" stereotype or try to insinuate that many of our clergy are homosexuals.  The facts, inspite of the barely veiled media inspired anti-Catholicsm of the UK/Irish media, are that a Catholic priest is less likely than a general member of the public to have either engaged in child abuse, or to be gay.  By no means am I trying to defend the abusers, one case of clerical abuse is one case too many, but I'm trying to show that the modern stigmatised stereotype is a terrible falsehood.

WTF has being gay got to do with child abuse? And why would a clergyman (of any relegion or denomination) be any more or less likely that anybody else to be gay?

[Puckoon]

Then what do you mean when you say that are a lot of effeminate priests who are living a lie?

Are you saying effeminate men make poor leaders?

Many religious leaders throughout the world have a gentle manner through which they provide spiritual guidance to their congregations. You could have the red blooded hellfire preachers / advocates of jihad I suppose but it is questionable whether their leadership is any better.

Well as leaders of the catholic faith these men were meant to have joined the order because the had a "calling" from god. There are a sizable number who joined for different reasons. If you look at the pedophile priests and swimming coaches, it is blatantly obvious they were lying about the intentions going into such positions and have brought those profession into disrepute. I'm saying that these effeminate priests are (to a lesser degree of seriousness) doing the same....i.e. living a lie. They loose credibility when people realize why they became a priest in the first place.

To my mind there is a big difference between having a gentle manner and being effeminate. I'm saying that generally, effeminate men do not seem to possess the right character traits to be leaders. I just can't think of any examples of any. I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong if others can prove otherwise. These priest get on great with the rosary bead brigade but don't seem to be able to reach out beyond to the community they serve in and encourage the waverers back into the flock.

TS, This is surely conjecture? How can you be sure of someones intentions? Im no great lover (pardon the pun) of the structures of the church, nor of many men/women who are part of it. That said however - I cant fathom that these people have based their careers around the potential to abuse young children.
I think you are mistaking gentleness, patience and a new practice of not pressurising people with these men being effeminate. Ive yet to see a priest walking around with a kink in the wrist or acting in any way feminine. The day of the bullish parish priest is gone. What you are seeing is the change. That said, I cant comment on the priest (s) you are in contact with. By the same token - you probably cant comment about the many either. Not unless you are  sales rep for the altar wine.
BTW,
There are many young, gentle men out there who are week in and week out doing a great job of bringing fallen catholics back to the church. You have to look for the things you want to see, if you are going to see them.

[whiskeysteve]

agreed puckoon

[pintsofguinness]

Personally I don't see very many 'womanly' priests about, not by your definition.

[J70]

Then what do you mean when you say that are a lot of effeminate priests who are living a lie?

Are you saying effeminate men make poor leaders?

Many religious leaders throughout the world have a gentle manner through which they provide spiritual guidance to their congregations. You could have the red blooded hellfire preachers / advocates of jihad I suppose but it is questionable whether their leadership is any better.

Well as leaders of the catholic faith these men were meant to have joined the order because the had a "calling" from god. There are a sizable number who joined for different reasons. If you look at the pedophile priests and swimming coaches, it is blatantly obvious they were lying about the intentions going into such positions and have brought those profession into disrepute. I'm saying that these effeminate priests are (to a lesser degree of seriousness) doing the same....i.e. living a lie. They loose credibility when people realize why they became a priest in the first place.

To my mind there is a big difference between having a gentle manner and being effeminate. I'm saying that generally, effeminate men do not seem to possess the right character traits to be leaders. I just can't think of any examples of any. I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong if others can prove otherwise. These priest get on great with the rosary bead brigade but don't seem to be able to reach out beyond to the community they serve in and encourage the waverers back into the flock.

What possible difference could the level of effeminacy in a priest make to whether people in his parish decide to go back to the church or not? And what evidence have you got that "effeminate" priests are less genuine, devout, dedicated or capable than those who are perceived as more "manly"?

Are you on the wind-up, or do you really believe what you're writing here?

[theskull1]

Skull where is this groundswell of effeminate priests?? Most priests tend to be softly spoken, polite and gentle enough and it may not even be their natural disposition (imagine you were pretending to be a priest, how would you act?). Men of faith often have a 'saintly' manner, or at least tend to portray one, its a stereotype that rightly or wrongly people act up to or expect, even unconciously.

I'm not sure what 'leadership' qualities you would expect of a priest, should they be strong, manly, herioc leaders in their daily battles like visiting the elderly, giving communion, organising parish fund raisers? They aren't warrior monks for heavens sake

Well of all the studies trying to estimate the number of priests with homsexuality orientation, the range varies from 15% to 50%. If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three. However, nobody knows with any degree of accuracy so I'm not trying to use that figure as fact. But they do exist in sizeable numbers so why does everyone think I'm making this up out of my head?

You obviously seem to be embarrassed/bothered with effeminity yourself.

Obviously   

TS, This is surely conjecture? How can you be sure of someones intentions? Im no great lover (pardon the pun) of the structures of the church, nor of many men/women who are part of it. That said however - I cant fathom that these people have based their careers around the potential to abuse young children.

I'll agree that it is conjecture, but when the priesthood held such a position of trust was it not the perfect job for such people? Child abusing priests is going off topic though so we shouldn't take this off in a tangent

I think you are mistaking gentleness, patience and a new practice of not pressurising people with these men being effeminate. Ive yet to see a priest walking around with a kink in the wrist or acting in any way feminine. The day of the bullish parish priest is gone. What you are seeing is the change. That said, I cant comment on the priest (s) you are in contact with. By the same token - you probably cant comment about the many either. Not unless you are  sales rep for the altar wine.

I did say in an earlier post that there is a "big difference between having a gentle manner and being effeminate" so I'm comfortable with the differentiation. I do know of 6 priests who were effeminately natured. 5 went to Africa, whilst the other has a parish somewhere in Ireland. Everybody I know is in agreement so again I don't think I'm unfairly judging these people. I'm prepared to admit that there is a chance that I may be wrong about one or maybe but not them all.

Personally I don't see very many 'womanly' priests about, not by your definition.
Mountains out of molehills my son, go in peace

They don't call them cassock lifters for nothing

What possible difference could the level of effeminacy in a priest make to whether people in his parish decide to go back to the church or not? And what evidence have you got that "effeminate" priests are less genuine, devout, dedicated or capable than those who are perceived as more "manly"?

Are you on the wind-up, or do you really believe what you're writing here?

I don't seem to be finding much agreement here even though the catholic church itself at the highest level can see the problem. Somebody's got the blinkers on

[J70]

I don't really have an issue with the catholic church's position. As with many of their teachings, I think it is complete and utter bollocks, but as I no longer participate in catholicism or have any religious belief whatsoever, I don't really care.

I just do not see the logic of your alleged association between the extent to which a priest may be effeminate on the one hand and the integrity and commitment which he brings to the job as well as the effect he may personally have on reparticipation on the part of lapsed believers on the other.

[pintsofguinness]

Your programme is coming on UTV now, Skull!

Great, sexually insecure men get to mouth about other people's business.   

[The Iceman]

I work as a volunteer youthworker and I just attended a weekend training session on child protection from a Catholic perspective.
the stats they gave us as recorded within the church where:

5% of abusers are homosexual and of those that were priests, only 5% were homosexual also.
That astounded me but did break away from the stereotypes mentioned above.

Child abuse of any kind is disgusting and God help those who have suffered at the hands of anyone.  The training session for me revealed that most abuse was by males towards little girls and sometimes older women toward little girls. 

[theskull1]

I just do not see the logic of your alleged association between the extent to which a priest may be effeminate on the one hand and the integrity and commitment which he brings to the job as well as the effect he may personally have on reparticipation on the part of lapsed believers on the other.

I'm saying that it is my view that, because those who entered the priesthood for "the wrong reasons" that they never had the integrity or commitment levels to carry out their ministries properly and end up going through the motions. They are bound to be troubled by the reality every day that they are living the lie and have to put on a facade to so many people they meet in everyday life that it greatly affects how well they carry out their duties. Maybe missionary priests don't face the same inquiry as priests back here do and still have the unwavering trust of the people which makes their lives more bearable

I don't really have an issue with the catholic church's position. As with many of their teachings, I think it is complete and utter bollocks, but as I no longer participate in catholicism or have any religious belief whatsoever, I don't really care.

I agree it's all a load of bollocks, but when you live in a catholic community and your kids go to the catholic school it's easier to play along. I've always wondered if the church is happy with me lying to my kids about me not believing in god  . I intend telling them about all faiths and I'm sure they'll eventually come to the same conclusion (i.e they can't all be right) over time

[theskull1]

5% of abusers are homosexual and of those that were priests, only 5% were homosexual also.
That astounded me but did break away from the stereotypes mentioned above.

Child abuse of any kind is disgusting and God help those who have suffered at the hands of anyone.  The training session for me revealed that most abuse was by males towards little girls and sometimes older women toward little girls. 

The unique thing about abuse by priests is that their victims have been almost exclusively boys (85% ish). Don't doubt for one second though that most of the abuse is carried out by people other than priests

[Pangurban]

Many serious issues are being raised here, so can i throw another into the pot. While the protection of children must always be paramount, the suspension of a priest on the basis of an accusation having been made, without even a preliminary enquiry into to the background and credibility of his accuser, is a denial of natural justice and human rights, which leaves priests alone and extremely vulnerable. No other profession applies or would tolerate automatic suspension as a response to an allegation, which may be fuelled by malice. In most cases it can be up to two years before the accused has his day in court and a chance to vindicate himself, in the meantime his reputation is ruined, he is placed under appaling stress as is his family, and at the end of the day he knows that a verdict of innocence will be insufficient to restore his good name as enough mud will have stuck and people are too willing to believe the worst.

[Declan]

I agree it's all a load of bollocks, but when you live in a catholic community and your kids go to the catholic school it's easier to play along. I've always wondered if the church is happy with me lying to my kids about me not believing in god. I intend telling them about all faiths and I'm sure they'll eventually come to the same conclusion (i.e they can't all be right) over time

This is the level of hypocrisy that bugs me. If you say your an athiest why why would you lie to your kids about your beliefs? The church as you term it wouldn't be happy about you lying about anything but if your not participating in it then I can't understand why you'd be wonderng about them anyway.   

Re the original question I still don't get the whole effeminate/gay priests link in your mind. Ireland of the 50s/60s when vocations were much higher was a vastly different place and there are numerous reasons for their decline. I'm sure there were lots of lads who went into the priesthood for the "wrong" reasons with societal/family pressures etc but over the years I'd say the vast majority of these have left.