Shinty

[LondonCamanachd]

@ the colonel

Gary Innes is in the squad

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

Sorley MacDonald of Skye Camanachd has been called into the squad too, don't know who pulled out.

Ireland squad;

1. Patrick Mullaney - Laois
2. Joe Bergin - Offaly
3. Kieran Divilly - Kildare
4. Cormac Donnelly - Antrim
5. John Doran - Kildare
6. Arron Graffin - Antrim
7. Willie Hyland - Laois
8. Eoin Kelly - Tipperary
9. David Kennedy - Kildare
10. Damian Maguire - Tyrone
11. Brendan Maher - Tipperary
12. Shane Morley - Mayo
13. Tom Murnane - Kerry
14. Brendan Murtagh - Westmeath
15. Eoin Nolan - Carlow
16. Andy O'Brien - Wicklow
17. Eoin Price - Westmeath
18. Michael Rice – Kilkenny (capt)

Under 21's;

1. Eoin Reilly - Laois
2. Michael Armstrong - Antrim
3. John Coyne - Roscommon
4. David English - Carlow
5. John Gilligan - Westmeath
6. Conor Grogan - Tyrone
7. Declan Hannon - Limerick
8. Jason Leahy - Kerry
9. Alan McGrath - Westmeath
10. Brian Murphy - Kerry
11. Killian Murphy - Westmeath
12. Shane Nolan - Kerry
13. Darragh O'Connell - Kerry (capt)
14. Barry O'Mara - Westmeath
15. Eanna O'Neill - Kildare
16. Mick Purcell - Kildare
17. Morgan Quinn - Leitrim
18. Ollie Walsh - Kilkenny

[the colonel]

apologies! couldnt see his name. thought it was strange he wasnt there

[LondonCamanachd]

Don't much about the Irish sport - how do GAABoard posters rate their squad?

There's two Tipperary and one Kilkenny player there, but the rest aren't big Hurling counties, are they?  And is this a chance for a talented player from a weaker county to get some recognition?

Hope I'm not bombarding you lot with stupid questions!

[Magicsponge]

It's not not the best squad we could pick, not by a country mile, but then picking the best squad might make the game a little one sided. Offaly would be a good hurling county, Antrim would also be good enough. Laois, Carlow and Westmeath are a wee bit behind Antrim. The rest wouldn't play in the higher tier of the championship.

As for a player getting recognition, who knows? maybe if he plays well enough. But I doubt he would get much recognition as no-one pays any attention to this game, which is unfortunate.

I don't know much about the Scotland team, but judging by previous games I think this will be a tight game. I think the rules give Scotland a slight advantage, especially since we cannot use our hands so the Scots might just edge it. I hope I'm wrong

Also some of the height and distance those Scottish lads get from striking the ball off the ground is quite impressive

[LondonCamanachd]

Aye, the rules seem slightly biased towards Scotland.  But then, the rules will never be completely neutral.  For example, handling the ball.  Whether included or excluded, it leaves one team trying to play the game in a completely alien manner.

Thanks for your answers about the team - by recognition, i was thinking more of a "thank you, we've noticed your efforts in a weaker team" from the association itself, rather than the hurling public at large.  I'm well aware that this game means more to the Scots than it ever will to the Irish.

We're a tiny sport even within a small country, it's very important for us to have some form of international outlet.  Hurling doesn't need that the way shinty does.

[Magicsponge]

I think just getting pick for the team is as much recognition as they can hope for, there isn't really much can be done in regards to a thank you, other than the presumably free gear and stuff they get, some one might might come out and say "Oh such and such from wherever played really well" but the won't be handing out rewards based on this game. It's not a professional sport so I think the opportunity to play for their country is brilliant for the players and they're probably delighted to get the chance

I think its good to have an international game for Hurling as well, it would be nice however, if Scotland teams were of a higher quality(no offence), then we could have A, B, C international games which would be great.

[LondonCamanachd]

I think its good to have an international game for Hurling as well, it would be nice however, if Scotland teams were of a higher quality(no offence), then we could have A, B, C international games which would be great.

None taken - the sport with a bigger pool of players will always have higher quality.

It would be great f the sport grew enough to facilitate a wide range of internationals, as well great for its own sake for shinty to grow.

Bear in mind we have only circa 50 clubs, tbh I think we're doing pretty well to put out A's, u21's and ladies!  Our national association are quite good at sending underage squads on tours to Ireland, but they tend to play clubs and the odd county, rather than the full age group internationals.  Our University teams try to send teams over/host teams, but that's probably more for the bevvy than the game!

[ardal]

I think the shinty / hurling internationals are great; prefer them to the football version personally.

If not already done, any chance of getting it integrated into the highland games (international)? If I'm right Shinty has a greater popularity in some area than others; north west of Scotland? We could perhaps break it up into a province verses district / fiefdom sort of rapid league, then an international.

[Magicsponge]

Only 50 clubs. Well you aren't that bad for only having 50 clubs. What would the average clubs facilities be like? Over here a lot of clubs have excellent facilities. 

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

The Scottish team is by and large picked from the Premier League clubs but I don't think you could say it was a pick of the very best shinty players. Only 1 player for example from either of the teams who took part in the recent Camanachd Cup final. It's a good squad though made up of guys who put themselves forward for selection and I think they all have previous experience of the composite rules too.

Should also be said that even in the years that Ireland picked the very best hurlers that Scotland did well against them - the only time there was a real hammering was when they used the Aussie Rules/Football scoring system. I reckon if you put the best hurlers and shinty players against each other that it would still be fairly close, you can see when they play that it's two different sports with each team trying to play it on their terms and it's hard for one to dominate and pull away. It's a bit of a novelty really but it's a very old link and is worth retaining IMO, albeit I wouldn't play it over 2 games. Also understand the concerns some shinty folk have over playing it when there are big league games still to play and winter looming!

[LondonCamanachd]

Only 50 clubs. Well you aren't that bad for only having 50 clubs. What would the average clubs facilities be like? Over here a lot of clubs have excellent facilities.

It can vary massively to be honest, not all clubs will have changing rooms as part of the ground - not many teams own their own grounds.  The Camanachd Association gets little support from either the Westminster or devolved Holyrood governments.  The majority of sports funding in the UK atm is going into the Olympics.  Without wanting to make it sound like a Kulturkampf it pisses me right off that so many Scots play Field Hockey and the amount of funding that sport gets compared to our own native stick and ball sport.

The university teams all have great facilities, as Scottish Unis tend to have good sports grounds in general, yet this is the lowest level of shinty.

Shinty is by and large a rural sport, a highland/gaidhlig sport to be specific.  The places that are shinty strongholds are fairly sparsely populated.  Fort William can support two clubs, each running 1sts and reserves and a youth program, whilst the nation's capital, Edinburgh, only has a ladies team!

There are great efforts to introduce the sport into the more populous central belt and there are a number of youth teams based around primary and secondary schools.  The important thing is not to lose those players when there is no established adult club nearby and beer and women become more of an interest!

Demonstration games are becoming more common at Highland Games, at home but especially in North America, Northern California has a 6-a-side league with 3 teams, and regularly put a Northern California Camanchd to tour Scotland.  There are also demonstration trophies based around the Royal National Mod (the annual Gaidhlig cultural festival) and around HebCelt (the Hebridean Celtic Music Festival)

There are also clubs in Oregon and Washington in the Pacific Northwest.  There are currently attempts to get a club off the ground in Massachusetts and i'm trying (and failing!) to revive the London club.


Regarding selection of the Scottish team - i think the best Shinty/Hurling players are now being picked, that's not neccessarily the best representative Shinty team out there.

[JHume]

Fascinating stuff London Caman.

A very close relation of shinty was played in ulster until the early 1900s when it  was killed off by the codification of the rules of hurling by the GAA.

Modern hurling rules are based almost entirely on the southern games of ioman, with scarcely a nod to the northern game of  Caman (only the sideline cut remains from the northern game).

Caman was a winter game, played with a hooked stick similar to a shinty one. The ball was wooden and was rarely handled, and the stick didn't much lend itself to carrying the ball.

My own club played under hurling rules but was effectively playing Caman  well into the 1930s. Reading the old records, our opponents were none too pleased with out sticks regularly smashing the flat Hurley sticks.

While i knew about the old Caman game, it wasn't until I saw a hurling shinty international in Croke Park that I made the connection.  The game we played in Donegal (and across Ulster) was effectively shinty.

[Magicsponge]

Thanks for the answer LondonCaman. I would agree with you that it's a shame people are playing field hockey in Scotland, rather than their native game, especially when they are relatively similar. I thought hurling had it's problems regarding the interest (or lack thereof) in Ireland, especially in Connacht and Ulster where most counties bar Antrim and Galway don't show much interest in the sport. To be fair though some counties in Ulster are making progress, especially in Armagh but still hurling is seen as footballs ugly sister in most parts. These problems seem to be nothing compared to what shinty is facing.

Lamh Dhearg Alba, maybe if both teams put out full strength teams it wouldn't be as one sided as I thought, and I agree that this link should be kept and maintained and promoted.
They are 2 different sports, and you can tell when you watch it, if Ireland were allowed to catch the ball and use their hands I think it would make the match a bit of a non-contest, it would be very hard for the Scots to get the ball. I also think that the fitness level of a full strength Irish team would be a major advantage for us, for all intents and purposes these are professional sports men playing an amateur game

[LondonCamanachd]

Thanks for the answer LondonCaman. I would agree with you that it's a shame people are playing field hockey in Scotland, rather than their native game, especially when they are relatively similar.

Part of the porblem is that they are relatively similar, shinty gets disparagingly referred to as "hockey for psychopaths".  I was always taught at school that fitness was "speed, strength, skill, stamina and agility".  Shinty requires all those in far greater quantities than hockey making it a far more entertaining spectator sport and far more fun to play.

I thought hurling had it's problems regarding the interest (or lack thereof) in Ireland, especially in Connacht and Ulster where most counties bar Antrim and Galway don't show much interest in the sport. To be fair though some counties in Ulster are making progress, especially in Armagh but still hurling is seen as footballs ugly sister in most parts. These problems seem to be nothing compared to what shinty is facing.

The GAA will always be bigger - the Camanachd Association was only ever a sporting body, and has no cultural or linguistic function - I suppose te battle in Ireland is to prevent the association from concentrrating on the one sport?. 

Football (soccer) will always dominate in Scotland, its the sport of the urban working class, and Scotland has always been a more industrial nation than Ireland.

I also think that the fitness level of a full strength Irish team would be a major advantage for us, for all intents and purposes these are professional sports men playing an amateur game

For an amatuer sport, the level of skill and fitness at the top of the sport does surprise people not used to shinty.  The shinty players will have 90minutes of running in them, the hurlers only 75, if the shinty players can recognise the time and concentrate 90 mins of running into 75, that might negate the hurlers fitness advantage (or it might go against them, as the shinty players will know how to pace themselves for 90mins, not 75!)