IFA begging Ireland players to play for them

[MW]

No you couldn't.  That is quite a mouthful and cutting and pasting it repeatedly isn't really an option. I'll stick to GSTQ if you find the 'English national anthem' objectionable.

GSTQ is far more preferable. "The British national anthem" or "the UK national anthem" are better than "English" if you want to be descriptive. Using "English national anthem" just looks like Tony on a tedious wind-up.

I think the singing of anthems by players is much more of a rugby thing anyway.  I have never seen any soccer body cry like the Argentinian rugby team do during their anthem. Or indeed compare the Welsh, Scottish and English rugby teams with their soccer counterparts. Still an anthem that makes any player feel uncomfortable is inappropriate, regardless of the sport.

Accept your point about rugby anthems being different, but it should still provide some sort of unfiying focal point.

But that is only delaying making the real decision. How many other teams have two anthems? I would say, have the balls to go the whole hog or come up with a valid reason for retaining GSTQ.

The IRFU has already provided the valid reason. Anthem of the host state. (Though the IRFU doesn't actually consistently follow that policy anymore, but that's another argument...)

If you are confident of your Britishness without GSTQ, why not the other 13,999 around you also?

Plenty are. The problem in NI is the whole 'zero-sum' mentality. Quite a few would unfortunately see such a move as a concession to people who only want rid of the NI team anyway.

[MW]

The only argument that needs to be made is that Irish citizenship be treated equally with British citizenship and that FIFA's rules are applied consistently.

Isn't that what Fifa's proposals would involve?

No.

1 - Irish citizens from Northern Ireland would be able to play for the Republic of Ireland. Irish citizens from the Republic of Ireland would be able to play for Northern Ireland. British citizens from Northern Ireland would be able to play for the Republic of Ireland. But British citizens from England, Scotland and Wales (and Bermuda, Montserrat, etc) would not be able to play for Northern Ireland. And British citizens from Northern Ireland wuld not be able to play for England, Scotland, and Wales (etc.).

2 - FIFA rules on eligibility where a nationality would theoretically qualify a player to play for more than one team are clear. This proposal would trample all over these rules.

[deiseach]

No.

1 - Irish citizens from Northern Ireland would be able to play for the Republic of Ireland. Irish citizens from the Republic of Ireland would be able to play for Northern Ireland. British citizens from Northern Ireland would be able to play for the Republic of Ireland. But British citizens from England, Scotland and Wales (and Bermuda, Montserrat, etc) would not be able to play for Northern Ireland. And British citizens from Northern Ireland wuld not be able to play for England, Scotland, and Wales (etc.).

2 - FIFA rules on eligibility where a nationality would theoretically qualify a player to play for more than one team are clear. This proposal would trample all over these rules.

Fair point. Still, someone is bound to point out that Fifa's rules would exclude those with Irish nationality from playing for the Republic of Ireland. If you think that's acceptable, fine. Don't be surprised if people are peeved and react badly.

[saffron sam2]

Excellent piece in todays Irish Times  - it appears that IFA only want to implement FIFAs rules when it suits them

Christ talk about missing the point (not for the first time). There are many exceptions to the FIFA rules (UK, Faroes, Palestine etc) but the one thing they all have in common is that NONE of them involve playing for a country that you have no connection to. So they are totally irrelevant to the current case.

It is this type of ignorant, arrogant, deliberately misleading stuff that truly sickens my hole and is an example of exactly what Donagh referred to earlier in the thread.  It is also unlikely to help win you any support in debates such as this.

[saffron sam2]

No you couldn't.  That is quite a mouthful and cutting and pasting it repeatedly isn't really an option. I'll stick to GSTQ if you find the 'English national anthem' objectionable.

GSTQ is far more preferable. "The British national anthem" or "the UK national anthem" are better than "English" if you want to be descriptive. Using "English national anthem" just looks like Tony on a tedious wind-up.

GSTQ it is then, unless I'm off on a tedious wind-up, not unknown it has to be said.

I think the singing of anthems by players is much more of a rugby thing anyway.  I have never seen any soccer body cry like the Argentinian rugby team do during their anthem. Or indeed compare the Welsh, Scottish and English rugby teams with their soccer counterparts. Still an anthem that makes any player feel uncomfortable is inappropriate, regardless of the sport.

Accept your point about rugby anthems being different, but it should still provide some sort of unfiying focal point.

It should indeed, but GSTQ (that was quite painless) will never be that.

But that is only delaying making the real decision. How many other teams have two anthems? I would say, have the balls to go the whole hog or come up with a valid reason for retaining GSTQ.

The IRFU has already provided the valid reason. Anthem of the host state. (Though the IRFU doesn't actually consistently follow that policy anymore, but that's another argument...)

Anthem of the host state is valid IMO, only if the other component parts of that state have the same protocol and if for example, the flag of the host state is also flown.

If you are confident of your Britishness without GSTQ, why not the other 13,999 around you also?

Plenty are. The problem in NI is the whole 'zero-sum' mentality. Quite a few would unfortunately see such a move as a concession to people who only want rid of the NI team anyway.

I genuinely think that the NI team is here to stay, what form that eventually does take will depend on the outcome of the current talks and the ambitions of young footballers from here. It will have nothing to do with political machinations, nor should it. It (the removal of GSTQ) is a concession only to equality and to how it should always have been.  I am at a loss as to why many NI fans feel the need to use the British national anthem to express their identity, when they are to a man oposoed to the idea of a British team.

[Main Street]

Excellent piece in todays Irish Times  - it appears that IFA only want to implement FIFAs rules when it suits them


"Wells's apparent inability to sense the irony of the case he was making was truly perplexing. At one point he argued that Fifa's proposal to allow those born on the island of Ireland to choose which national teams they would prefer to play for would undermine the internal eligibility arrangements agreed between the British associations. The four have had a gentlemen's agreement since the early 1990s to apply the Fifa rules as if they were really four different countries because the rules, needless to say, don't actually apply to them."

Firstly : wrong wrong, wrong. The four British Associations are following FIFA rules, which specifically recognise that they can organise seperately.

Also, Mr Malone must be a tad simple if he find's Wells's point "perplexing". It's really quite straightforward. The arrangement for British citizens is that they can only play for the association in whose territory they were born, have resided for two years, or had a parent/grandparent born in. FIFA now propose to let Irish citizens play for whatever team they chose regardless of such qualifications - and also to let British citizens from Northern Ireland play for the Republic of Ireland!

Not quite MW  
The UK agreement does not allow for residency as a criteria.
Furthurmore
FIFA do  allow associations to come to acceptable agreements but FIFA have the prerogative of accepting or rejecting it.
The UK agreement is added in to FIFA statutes as an extra, the agreement may or may not be reflecting the annex criteria, in this case it only partially reflects the annex criteria.

On other points, you really have to try better to understand why FIFA have consistantly supported the FAI´s version of eligibility for the national team.

[armaghniac]

from the Belly Telly

the correspondent doesn't seem to realise that Carson couldn't give a f**k about the "Ulster" identity.

Monday, November 12, 2007

Where is the DUP, the great defender of Ulster culture when you need them most.

The erosion of our Ulster identity has all but slipped away peacefully in the night into an all-Ireland culture and no one in the DUP cares a thing.

The latest demise to our identity has been the ruling by FIFA, who lawfully recognises Ireland as a whole with no border and that anyone born on this island can play for whichever national football team they like, either North or South.

What does our border mean - is it not an international frontier between two countries? We have moved further down the road into an all-Ireland under DUP rule than at any time in the past. What would Carson think ot them today?

William Curry Belfast

[his holiness nb]

from the Belly Telly

the correspondent doesn't seem to realise that Carson couldn't give a f**k about the "Ulster" identity.

Monday, November 12, 2007

Where is the DUP, the great defender of Ulster culture when you need them most.

The erosion of our Ulster identity has all but slipped away peacefully in the night into an all-Ireland culture and no one in the DUP cares a thing.

The latest demise to our identity has been the ruling by FIFA, who lawfully recognises Ireland as a whole with no border and that anyone born on this island can play for whichever national football team they like, either North or South.

What does our border mean - is it not an international frontier between two countries? We have moved further down the road into an all-Ireland under DUP rule than at any time in the past. What would Carson think ot them today?
William Curry Belfast

Its funny coz its true 

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Check out quote below from OWC's finest "Roger".   I should point out that said poster seems equally vociferous about the whole anthems issue when it comes to rugby.  He is so often at pains to point out the offensiveness of Amhrán na bhFiann for unionist rugby players.  However, it appears that he (and many others on OWC) are of the opinion that Nationalists who don't want to play for Northern Ireland or have an issue with their anthem are, yes you guessed right: bigots.

RC's and Irish nationalists are never the bigot and even if they are they are soon forgotten about and hailed as heros. I just don't think that these mercenaries and bigots should be the reason to force a change in playing the National Anthem. The only way to stop the ROI poaching players on a sectarian basis is for the NI team to be better than the ROI's team. If the ROI had tried to poach a nationalist player from NI in the 1980s they'd have been told, "Fcuk Aff, I want to play in World Cups!"

Ironic? Moronic more like.


/Jim.

[doofus]

how do you get onto the owc page, i tried earlier and it says i need to register. I s there any way of getting on without registering.

[magickingdom]

is there any end to unionist moaning? wells wants fifa to treat the roi like every other nation yet britian gets 4 teams which he has no problem with, they then get to appoint one of 8 vice presidents and each get a seat on the international board.. how far up his arse is his head? it reminds me of jeffery donaldson demanding a 'level' playing with the republic when he was looking for 12.5% corp tax for the north without blinking an eye. what about a 'level' playing with the rest of his beloved uk? didnt enter his head. so mw/sammy/nifan/chris, serious question, is it right that britian gets 4 teams? is it right they then get to appoint one of 8 vice presidents? and is it right that each get a seat on the international board?

[Main Street]

Darron Gibson is quite happy with his situation as reported in the Derry Journal, it would have been heartbreaking for this young lad to be denied his calling.

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal-sport/39Gibby39-delighted-with-FIFA39s-surprise.3461378.jp

Nov 9th 2007

"To be honest I always thought it would turn out this way, but I'm delighted that I can continue to play for the Republic of Ireland," he said.

"Hopefully the decision will stop all the speculation but, as I've said before, I was always confident it would end up this way.
Before I decided that I wanted to represent the Republic, I found out through my own advisors that it was possible to do so. But I had to make sure if there was any ruling which would make me ineligible to play.

"I also felt that if the FAI had known there was going to be a problem, then they wouldn't have selected me to play for them in the first place," he maintained.

"I would say the decision is a good thing for young footballers in N. Ireland. In my experience, many players would prefer to play for the Republic so it's definitely a good thing for the FAI. Then again, there are players who will opt to play for Northern Ireland so, from a player's point of view, I think it's good to have a choice.

"From my own personal viewpoint, I'm really enjoying being part of the Republic of Ireland squad. It's been brilliant so far and I'm glad all the talk of player eligibility is coming to an end," concluded the 20-year-old.

[saffron sam2]

Check out quote below from OWC's finest "Roger".   I should point out that said poster seems equally vociferous about the whole anthems issue when it comes to rugby.  He is so often at pains to point out the offensiveness of Amhrán na bhFiann for unionist rugby players.  However, it appears that he (and many others on OWC) are of the opinion that Nationalists who don't want to play for Northern Ireland or have an issue with their anthem are, yes you guessed right: bigots.

RC's and Irish nationalists are never the bigot and even if they are they are soon forgotten about and hailed as heros. I just don't think that these mercenaries and bigots should be the reason to force a change in playing the National Anthem. The only way to stop the ROI poaching players on a sectarian basis is for the NI team to be better than the ROI's team. If the ROI had tried to poach a nationalist player from NI in the 1980s they'd have been told, "Fcuk Aff, I want to play in World Cups!"

Ironic? Moronic more like.


/Jim.

Jim, surely you must realise that is simply one post from one poster and does not in any way reflect the views of the average NI fan.

A sort of "one idiot with a five pound note" scenario if you like.

[Chrisowc]

is there any end to unionist moaning? wells wants fifa to treat the roi like every other nation yet britian gets 4 teams which he has no problem with, they then get to appoint one of 8 vice presidents and each get a seat on the international board.. how far up his arse is his head? it reminds me of jeffery donaldson demanding a 'level' playing with the republic when he was looking for 12.5% corp tax for the north without blinking an eye. what about a 'level' playing with the rest of his beloved uk? didnt enter his head. so mw/sammy/nifan/chris, serious question, is it right that britian gets 4 teams? is it right they then get to appoint one of 8 vice presidents? and is it right that each get a seat on the international board?

What Wells is asking for is that FAI are treated like every other Association.  There are more football associations than nations even without accounting for the UK.

As for your question.  As far as I know the 'home nations' were bargaining from a position of strength after WWII due to FIFA's financial problems and again off the top of my head a friendly between GB vs The Rest of the World took place in Glasgow and FIFA received all gate receipts.  I'm sure there were other in and outs but that is the gist of it.

Honestly I don't have an opinion of whether it's right or wrong.  However, I am a football traditionalist.  I love football nostalgia and history at all levels of football (local and worldwide) and I am proud that the IFA has over 125 years of history.

Some people have commented that they feel that the actions of FAI are sectarian.  I am not one of those.  I do however,  feel that their actions are extremely underhand and go against the spirit of the game.  I feel FIFA, behind the scenes, will be putting pressure on both the IFA and FAI to agree a similar arrangement to that which the UK associations have come to.

[SammyG]

Check out quote below from OWC's finest "Roger".   I should point out that said poster seems equally vociferous about the whole anthems issue when it comes to rugby.  He is so often at pains to point out the offensiveness of Amhrán na bhFiann for unionist rugby players.  However, it appears that he (and many others on OWC) are of the opinion that Nationalists who don't want to play for Northern Ireland or have an issue with their anthem are, yes you guessed right: bigots.

RC's and Irish nationalists are never the bigot and even if they are they are soon forgotten about and hailed as heros. I just don't think that these mercenaries and bigots should be the reason to force a change in playing the National Anthem. The only way to stop the ROI poaching players on a sectarian basis is for the NI team to be better than the ROI's team. If the ROI had tried to poach a nationalist player from NI in the 1980s they'd have been told, "Fcuk Aff, I want to play in World Cups!"

Ironic? Moronic more like.


/Jim.

Jim, surely you must realise that is simply one post from one poster and does not in any way reflect the views of the average NI fan.

A sort of "one idiot with a five pound note" scenario if you like.

I love the way things get quoted on this site. If you actually read his post he says that we shouldn't change the anthem to suit the agenda of a few bigots. He doesn't say that all Nationalists are bigots, he doesn't say we should never change the anthem, he doesn't even say that Gibson is a bigot.