IFA begging Ireland players to play for them

[Shamrock Shore]

Can Phil Coulter write some auld drippy sentimental shite about the Glens of Antrim and the Mountains of Mourne so that we may fall asleep before any NI match.

It's for the best.

[saffron sam2]

Saffron Sam is correct on one count - one individual did complain about that line from alternative ulster as i recall. The suggestion was facetious and i dont recall much of a real debate on that one. Certainly the "serious opposition" amounted to at least one person. However sam im sure youll agree from your post it sounded like a large numebr of people opposed it.

I do not remember the one from danny boy however.

Couple of things nifan.  Alternative Ulster will never be seriously considered so is largely irrelevant.  I didn't think that the suggestion was facetious, the poster said he had never forgiven SLF for that particular lyric.  If it was facetious, then I am happy to apologise, but said poster is operating on a much higher intellectual level than me. Not difficult I suppose.

I apologise for any ambiguity in my post.  Of course, there is serious opposition to Danny Boy, some of the opposition has been outlined by MW, there are other reasons and I just listed the most bizarre one. Still, my post is less ambiguous than Sammy's majority want rid of GSTQ.

[nifan]

sam, i mean the ulternative ulster suggestion was facetious.
The poster was serious in my opinion also.

As for getting rid of GSTQ, id say a good few who voted GSTQ + a ni song are being pragmatic, i know people who voted that way as more softly softly approach to reving gstq, with the idea of fazing it out.

Personally i voted get rid asap.

[SammyG]

Saffron Sam is correct on one count - one individual did complain about that line from alternative ulster as i recall. The suggestion was facetious and i dont recall much of a real debate on that one. Certainly the "serious opposition" amounted to at least one person. However sam im sure youll agree from your post it sounded like a large numebr of people opposed it.

I do not remember the one from danny boy however.

Couple of things nifan.  Alternative Ulster will never be seriously considered so is largely irrelevant.  I didn't think that the suggestion was facetious, the poster said he had never forgiven SLF for that particular lyric.  If it was facetious, then I am happy to apologise, but said poster is operating on a much higher intellectual level than me. Not difficult I suppose.

I apologise for any ambiguity in my post.  Of course, there is serious opposition to Danny Boy, some of the opposition has been outlined by MW, there are other reasons and I just listed the most bizarre one. Still, my post is less ambiguous than Sammy's majority want rid of GSTQ.

So you've now gone from 'serious opposition' to two posts, one of which might have been a joke. Right, excellent, glad we got that cleared up.

[Evil Genius]

Saffron Sam is correct on one count - one individual did complain about that line from alternative ulster as i recall. The suggestion was facetious and i dont recall much of a real debate on that one. Certainly the "serious opposition" amounted to at least one person. However sam im sure youll agree from your post it sounded like a large numebr of people opposed it.

I do not remember the one from danny boy however.

Couple of things nifan.  Alternative Ulster will never be seriously considered so is largely irrelevant.  I didn't think that the suggestion was facetious, the poster said he had never forgiven SLF for that particular lyric.  If it was facetious, then I am happy to apologise, but said poster is operating on a much higher intellectual level than me. Not difficult I suppose.

I apologise for any ambiguity in my post.  Of course, there is serious opposition to Danny Boy, some of the opposition has been outlined by MW, there are other reasons and I just listed the most bizarre one. Still, my post is less ambiguous than Sammy's majority want rid of GSTQ.

Sam, with your observations on Danny Boy and Alternative Ulster (esp), you are veering dangerously towards "Fearon Island" - a strange fantasy world where nothing is as it seems and everything is tainted by the whiff of bullshit (or worse).

I have followed the Anthem debate on OWC, plus discussed it with fellow NI fans.

It seems clear to me that whilst some NI fans want to retain GSTQ, others (inc. myself) would like to see it replaced with something peculiarly Norn Iron. I don't know what the proportions are, but I hope and suspect the new anthem lobby is in a majority. If not, then it is certainly gaining support.

As for what any replacement should be, I've never taken seriously the very occasional call for "Alternative Ulster", any more than I have e.g. the slightly more frequent call e.g for "Teenage Kicks". Neither has any significant support, nor any chance whatever of being adopted. As for the poster who considers AltUls unsuitable because of a line about the RUC - of which 95%+ of fans will be entirely unaware - I am prepared to accept that one poster used this line as a reason for not accepting it (I don't recall him, myself). If he was serious, then he is a p***k for ever believing that it has any chance of being adopted and a p***k for getting worked up about the lyrics. Either way, he is entirely unrepresentative of the NI support and as such, I have no idea why you or anyone else should allow this to inform the debate in any way.

As for Danny Boy, there is some support for this being adopted, just as there is some opposition. Re. the latter, I have seen a number of reasons. For one thing the tune is, as SammyG says, a (somewhat corny?) love song in character, rather than a rousing type of "anthem". Also, having a very wide range, it is actually quite difficult to sing. Moreover, the words have nothing whatever to do with Northern Ireland, never mind football. And in any case, amongst those people who oppose it, many will have nothing against the song itself, just prefer something else (perhaps something specially commissioned?). As for the poster who objects to the line about "saying an Ave" etc, it was news to me that the lyrics even contained such a phrase. However, I don't for one minute believe that that reference will make any difference to whatever chance of adoption DB might have, since only the first verse would ever be sung. (In the same way as proud Ulster-Scots do not object to GSTQ, despite one of the verses containing something about sending General Wade out to "crush rebellious Scots" and "frustrate their knavish tricks" etc!)
Anyhow, if DB is good enogh for the NI team in the Commonwealth Games, or generations of boxers from Rinty Monaghan onwards, who traditionally have sung it after their fights in the Kings Hall or Ulster Hall etc, then the offending line will cause no problem whatever.

As for Deiseach's comment that the title would cause an "even bigger stink", I am at a loss to know what such people ever want. The title of the tune, as recorded, is "The Londonderry Air". However, the song is invariably known as "Danny Boy", since the lyrics were written separately, and much later. Nowhere do the lyrics contain any reference to Londonderry (or Derry, for that matter). Therefore, if any (presumably) Nationalist observer should honestly object to DB replacing GSTQ as the NI football team anthem, then he is a p***k who should be accorded the same seriousness i.e. none, as those "Loyalists" who object to DB because of the "Ave" line, or those who object to AU due to the RUC line.

Anyhow, whilst I personally am more convinced than ever that GSTQ should be replaced, I still don't understand why its being should provoke quite such anger amongst a section of the NI public - especially those who have no interest in the team, anyhow. For myself, I don't like it, don't sing it, occasionally don't even hear it (if I'm late getting in, as is often the case!). Do these objectors get similarly outraged on behalf of e.g. NI Unionists like myself who have to tolerate the Soldiers Song at Ireland rugby matches, or even all those Unionists/Protestants we are told happily play Gaelic Games throughout NI, and who are occasionally asked to respect the Soldiers Songs there, as well? It would be nice if such people were consistent in their criticism; it would also be a bloody miracle (imo)!

Someone mentioned Sammy Clingan looking as though he's rather ber somewhere else for two minutes when GSTQ was played before the Sweden game. Clearly such an effect can have been only temporary, since he was absolutely everywhere during the 90 minutes of the actual game - many peoples MOTM! Still, what would a "West Brit"/Castle Catholic/Souper like him know about such things, eh?  

[Evil Genius]

Its about much more than the English National Anthem, all unionist flags and emblems would have to be banned as well, no political chants such as No Surrender or Ulster Till I die could be tolerated and indeed the name of the team, as presently constituted, could not possibly remain.

GSTQ is no more the "English National Anthem" than e.g. WASPS Rugby Club is named for White Anglo Saxon Protestantism, as you ridiculously tried to claim previously.

And what are these "Unionist flags and emblems" to which you refer? Do you mean the Celtic Cross on the shirt? The shamrocks on the badge? The emerald green shirts, maybe?
If you take a look at the IFA Website, you will see that all the hundreds of flags, kit, gifts, scarves etc are invariably in the teams colours - green and blue etc:
http://www.irishfa.com/shop
Perhaps you mean this sort of thing?


As for the (two second) airing which No Surrender gets from a minority of fans before the game, I agree it should be stopped. However, I am genuinely at a loss to know how to do so without actually causing more trouble than it provokes. (Other than change the Anthem, of course, which I and many others advocate). Anyhow, I'm pleased to report it was no great problem for either of the two Catholic fans who accompanied me to the last NI game we attended...

As for "Ulster Til I Die", the vast majority of players and fans are, indeed, Ulstermen and women, so the song is at least technically correct. Of course, the team name is Northern Ireland, but that hardly scans, so it would be unusual if that were inserted. Anyhow, would you object to fans of the FAI team singing "Ireland Til I Die", even though that is not actually the name of the team? I thought not...

As for changing the team name (from Northern Ireland), what would you suggest? Presumably "Ulster" would not meet with your approval; does this mean the Irish Football Association should revert to the original team name, as sung and chanted by our fans down the decades? You know, "Ireland"! 

Read in a paper of the weekend that three Arsenal fans of non Britsih extraction are to sue their own club for breach of the Race Relations Act in allowing anyi semetic chants to be hurled at Spurs and their fans. Surely any Catholic fan of the North of Ireland team, if indeed one exists, would have a similar case against the IFA.

How noble of you that you should take up the cudgel on behalf of people who, as Arsenal fans support a rival team to yours, and as (possibly) Jews, follow a religion which you consider to be false, even heretical. Can we assume you were similarly concerned when some (self-styled) fans of your beloved Republic of Ireland team displayed similarly anti-Semitic behaviour, both inside and outside the stadium, when the Israeli National team last came to play in Dublin?

After all, we couldn't have people accuse you of being a hypocrite, could we?

[saffron sam2]

EG, many thanks for taking the time to construct a well-thought post.  However, as is usual it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Sam, with your observations on Danny Boy and Alternative Ulster (esp), you are veering dangerously towards "Fearon Island" - a strange fantasy world where nothing is as it seems and everything is tainted by the whiff of bullshit (or worse).

Don't shoot the messenger.  Do those who came up with the original observations also veer towards Fearon Island?

It seems clear to me that whilst some NI fans want to retain GSTQ, others (inc. myself) would like to see it replaced with something peculiarly Norn Iron. I don't know what the proportions are, but I hope and suspect the new anthem lobby is in a majority. If not, then it is certainly gaining support.

The figures I used (two thirds in favour of retention of GSTQ) are from the most recent, albeit unofficial straw poll on owc.  I am happy to assume that these figures would be broadly in line with the general current NI support base. I can say with a lot more certainty that a majority of people involved in soccer in NI would not want GSTQ to be retained. Why do people who are put off by the use of this tune not qualify for a say, why will the IFA not act on the responses contained in the Democratic Dialogue document?

As for what any replacement should be, I've never taken seriously the very occasional call for "Alternative Ulster", any more than I have e.g. the slightly more frequent call e.g for "Teenage Kicks". Neither has any significant support, nor any chance whatever of being adopted. As for the poster who considers AltUls unsuitable because of a line about the RUC - of which 95%+ of fans will be entirely unaware - I am prepared to accept that one poster used this line as a reason for not accepting it (I don't recall him, myself). If he was serious, then he is a p***k for ever believing that it has any chance of being adopted and a p***k for getting worked up about the lyrics. Either way, he is entirely unrepresentative of the NI support and as such, I have no idea why you or anyone else should allow this to inform the debate in any way.

No-one in any seriousness would think either of those tunes is appropriate. I assume 5times was being flippant when he mentioned it first. Sammy was probably being flippant when appearing to consider it, I just joined in to give a balanced argument, playing the devil's advocate if you like. I will ensure that I keep things relevant or use emoticons from now on.

As for Danny Boy, there is some support for this being adopted, just as there is some opposition. Re. the latter, I have seen a number of reasons. For one thing the tune is, as SammyG says, a (somewhat corny?) love song in character, rather than a rousing type of "anthem". Also, having a very wide range, it is actually quite difficult to sing. Moreover, the words have nothing whatever to do with Northern Ireland, never mind football. And in any case, amongst those people who oppose it, many will have nothing against the song itself, just prefer something else (perhaps something specially commissioned?). As for the poster who objects to the line about "saying an Ave" etc, it was news to me that the lyrics even contained such a phrase. However, I don't for one minute believe that that reference will make any difference to whatever chance of adoption DB might have, since only the first verse would ever be sung. (In the same way as proud Ulster-Scots do not object to GSTQ, despite one of the verses containing something about sending General Wade out to "crush rebellious Scots" and "frustrate their knavish tricks" etc!)
Anyhow, if DB is good enogh for the NI team in the Commonwealth Games, or generations of boxers from Rinty Monaghan onwards, who traditionally have sung it after their fights in the Kings Hall or Ulster Hall etc, then the offending line will cause no problem whatever.

Certainly if there is to be a change in anthem, Danny Boy would be my preferred choice. I would say that 14,000+ singing / belting out Danny Boy could be made to sound rousing enough, regardless of the words.  The range of the song and singing difficulty is a red herring.  I don't think anyone is expected to be a competent singer to sing their anthem. The lack of footballing / NI words is also a red herring. As you have said it is good enough for the Commonwealth games (without lyrics about boxing, badminton, gymnastics etc.), so should be good enough for soccer. You are correct that the offending line will never be sung, but it is worrying that that mindset exists without challenge. If you can come up with a better alternative or some specially commissioned muck then work away, but I don't think anything will outdo DB.

As for Deiseach's comment that the title would cause an "even bigger stink", I am at a loss to know what such people ever want. The title of the tune, as recorded, is "The Londonderry Air". However, the song is invariably known as "Danny Boy", since the lyrics were written separately, and much later. Nowhere do the lyrics contain any reference to Londonderry (or Derry, for that matter). Therefore, if any (presumably) Nationalist observer should honestly object to DB replacing GSTQ as the NI football team anthem, then he is a p***k who should be accorded the same seriousness i.e. none, as those "Loyalists" who object to DB because of the "Ave" line, or those who object to AU due to the RUC line.

My understanding of the naming convention of the tune and song would be the same as yours, without wanting to get into the Derry / Londonderry crap, hence I can therefore agree with this part of your post.

Anyhow, whilst I personally am more convinced than ever that GSTQ should be replaced, I still don't understand why its being should provoke quite such anger amongst a section of the NI public - especially those who have no interest in the team, anyhow. For myself, I don't like it, don't sing it, occasionally don't even hear it (if I'm late getting in, as is often the case!). Do these objectors get similarly outraged on behalf of e.g. NI Unionists like myself who have to tolerate the Soldiers Song at Ireland rugby matches, or even all those Unionists/Protestants we are told happily play Gaelic Games throughout NI, and who are occasionally asked to respect the Soldiers Songs there, as well? It would be nice if such people were consistent in their criticism; it would also be a bloody miracle (imo)!

If you are talking about me in this quote, a couple of points :-
- why assume that I have no interest in the team.  I certainly will be watching both NI games over the next week, in preference to any other international games.
- Although I can't see the relevance of the rugby and GAA point you are making, I will answer it from my point of view anyway.  I have always been entirely consistent on the issue of anthems.  If you read back through this entire thread you may well get some idea of my position. But I will restate it, if the flags and anthems used at any sporting event are seen as divisive or unrepresentative then they are inappropriate and should not be used. I accept that I am most likely in the minority with this view, but I hope it helps clear up any possible ambiguity.

If the quote wasn't directed at me, please accept my apologies.

Someone mentioned Sammy Clingan looking as though he's rather ber somewhere else for two minutes when GSTQ was played before the Sweden game. Clearly such an effect can have been only temporary, since he was absolutely everywhere during the 90 minutes of the actual game - many peoples MOTM! Still, what would a "West Brit"/Castle Catholic/Souper like him know about such things, eh?  

That would have been me. To extrapolate what I said into your west brit / castle catholic / souper etc. is an incredible leap. The point that I was trying to make, is why should someone like Sammy or the many nationalists before him who have played for NI, be subjected to something that so obviously doesn't sit well with him. Record the two games, watch the anthems and then decide if I am being unfair.

[MW]

Lads

Unfortunately, I cannot log onto owc to back up my claim, but I have read both comments (re. and "kneel and say an Avé there for me" and the "RUC dog of repression") on that site. I am assuming that in both cases the poster(s) were serious, hence serious opposition. I will not be spending the requisite fiver to become a patron, so you will just have to search a little deeper.  You will remember, Sammy, accusing me of making things up in the past only to be left with egg on your face when I did eventually produce acceptable evidence.  So do, both myself and yourself a favour and don't come back with the stock 'so that will be no evidence' line.

One poster citing the "Avé" lines as the focus of his opposition is a long way from "Unfortunately, both Danny Boy and Alternative Ulster have run into serious opposition over on owc. Danny Boy, because it contains the line "and kneel and say an Avé there for me".  It is therefore obvious that both the narrrator of the song and Danny Boy himself are Fenians and as such this song would not be acceptable to the masses.  (That's masses of supporters rather than religious masses)." which is what you said first. That imples a very different situation IMO from one poster saying he didn't like that line.

Sammy, you are also being quite silly with your reference to Land Of Hope and Glory.  I watched the rugby world cup final and GSTQ was played there. I am assuming that it will be played before the England - Croatia game next week, so it is correct to use the term 'English national anthem' when referring to GSTQ.

You could just as easily have called in the Northern Irish national anthem speaking in a football context then

I feel it is unlikely that the IFA will make any changes to the anthems, because there have been no noises there about possible changes; because it doesn't appear to come under the remit of FFA and because although it was referred to in the report commissioned by the IFA, nothing has been mentioned subsequently to this. Still, I could be proved wrong - do you know something I don't?

I certainly don't know anything you don't in that regard. I've long argued in favour or the replacement of GSTQ with a NI-specific anthem (preferably Danny Boy/Londonderry Air for me) and argued that point when I was a fanzine writer. I made this point a couple of years ago and was informed by the IFA at that stage that they didn't have any plans to change the anthem.

MW, you're being awful paranoid about the belting out of GSTQ. The camera panned across the team, about two or three were singing, a few looked a wee bit embarrassed, Sammy Clingan looked liked he would rather be anywhere else. The camera then panned to Kennedy who was belting the anthem out. In the same way, I would suggest that rugby internationals belt out their anthems before games.  Nothing sinsiter about my use of the phrase at all.

Maybe not in your case, but there's an odd habit of referring to GSTQ as being "belted out", presumably with pejorative intention.

As for some of the team singing and some not - this is one of my main points in favour of a NI-specific anthem. The playing of the anthem should be an occasion for a rallying cry and show of unity from the whole team. It's embarrassing that it occasions such different reactions from the players. I'd be similiarly embarrassed with the spectacle at Ireland rugby games in Dublin were I a nationalist. And I'd feel no loss at not having GSTQ played - I'm secure enough in my Britishness and have no need to have it reinforced at NI matches.

[MW]

sam, i mean the ulternative ulster suggestion was facetious.
The poster was serious in my opinion also.

As for getting rid of GSTQ, id say a good few who voted GSTQ + a ni song are being pragmatic, i know people who voted that way as more softly softly approach to reving gstq, with the idea of fazing it out.

I think that's fairly accurate. I'd be in favour of a complete change of anthem, but if we adopted the 'rugby solution' (or at least what the 'rugby solution' was perceived to be until recently...) it might provide some way of getting the status quo changed.

[T Fearon]

Will you ever give it in. I am greatly encouraged re the support for my idea of an All Ireland side to oppose Brazil in Croker in February. Mine was the headline letter in yesterday's Sunday Tribune and there is another letter of support in the Telegraph tonight.

Thumbs down to wankers like Armstrong (who should never be allowed back into the Fall ) and Mc Illroy for spouting the old shite in to-day's Orange Letter that you should play for the country you're born in. Thats exactly what Gibson is doing, you complete assholes

[MW]

Will you ever give it in.

Nope.

I am greatly encouraged re the support for my idea of an All Ireland side to oppose Brazil in Croker in February. Mine was the headline letter in yesterday's Sunday Tribune and there is another letter of support in the Telegraph tonight.

Super, must make your existence worthwhile

Thumbs down to wankers like Armstrong (who should never be allowed back into the Fall )

Nice. Another quote that you can be sure willl come back to haunt you, Tony...

and Mc Illroy for spouting the old shite in to-day's Orange Letter that you should play for the country you're born in. Thats exactly what Gibson is doing, you complete assholes

Feck it, I'll humour you. What country is that?

[deiseach]

My point re 'Danny Boy' is that if you think the people who are for GSTQ (because they're not going to give in to the terrorism of SF/IRA) or against it (the anthem of their oppression) are going to blithely ignore the opportunity to get their collective knickers in a twist over the London/Derry Air, you're going to be disappointed.

[doofus]

Also, having a very wide range, it is actually quite difficult to sing. Moreover, the words have nothing whatever to do with Northern Ireland, never mind football.

Someone tell me, what countries' anthems in the world have anything to do with football?? 

[Chrisowc]

Thumbs down to wankers like Armstrong (who should never be allowed back into the Fall )

Keep digging Tony.

[T Fearon]

I can see after the 6 counties get hammered by both Denmark and Spain, the FAI going back to FIF an saying "It's OK! Forget it! We wouldn't want any of that shite anyway!"