What now for Armagh?

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

There's one thought that has struck me - I wonder in the years from 89 to 95, were there people in Meath having these types of conversations about Sean Boylan. In that case, it turned out that the old man was the right man to build the new team.

[orangeman]

Peter was injured and did play full matches when fit -

[Datsun Donaghy]

I don't wish to see Joe step down, but I feel it is a good time for him to move up.

We may lose some of the older hands but hopefully not as many as some posters believe. Players such as Oisin and Paul McG would be invaluable to have on the bench until the last 15 mins. I don't feel that they would be too proud to be a sub if they believed it was in the best interests of Armagh. They will recognise that they can't go on full tilt forever and younger players need to come through - who better to help them with that huge step up to Championship footy?

The local talk at the start of the year was that John Raff came on board to take over from Joe at the end of this season - with few wins in the League and none in the Championship that does not look too promising a propisition now. I would firmly be in the camp that believes Paul Grimley is the best man for the job when Joe moves, perhaps with Peter Rafferty and Geezer in the fold. A hugely difficult task would be to replace John Mc Cluskey should he move on!

Whatever happens, I think Armagh would be much poorer if they were to lose Joe's experience altogether - the first Director of Football in GAA terms would be appropriate - we can't afford to start again with a new manager who has to learn the inter-county game from scratch or it definitely will be "What now for Armagh ?"

[orangeman]

Datsun, you make some fine points there - an excellent idea to hold on to Joe by the way !

[ludermor]

im sure McGeeney would like another chapter to put in his biography he is releasing next year

[twotwocharlie]

what would this director of football do exactly. u can only have one manager.

[twotwocharlie]

by the way anyone got a spare ticket for croke park on sun

[PatDaly]

Can anyone of you record the Armagh v Derry match for me on DVD? If possible, I will pay you for the DVD and postage costs.  Setanta Ireland are showing the entire match. Thanks

Setanta Schedule
Fri 13 July at 9:40pm GAA All-Ireland SFC Qualifier
Coverage of the Football Championship qualifier between Ulster rivals Armagh and Derry, hoping to avoid an early end to their 2007 campaign.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

From today's Gaelic Life, and hits the nail I'd say...


Armagh gave everything they had to lift a
second Sam but a lack of firepower cost them

The man with an opinion on everything...

JOE BROLLY
July 13, 2007 | Gaelic Life

IN the finale of 'Unforgiven' the fast drawing sheriff (Gene Hackman) has been shot and winged by the avenging assassin (Clint Eastwood). It wasn't a fair fight. The assassin walked into the bar and mowed him with a shot gun. As he lies there helpless on the floor of the saloon, in a pool of his own blood, we hear the strike of the spurs on the wood floor as Eastwood bears down on him. He bends over the stricken man, cocks his six shooter and points it in his face. "I don't deserve this," says Hackman. "Deserve's got nothing to do with it," says the killer as he sends him to his tomb.

I have heard it said often in the course of the past week that Armagh deserve more than one All-Ireland. Each time I have thought of those words. Their one-point defeat by Derry last week brought the curtain down on the long search for a second All-Ireland we can only imagine the massive effort expended in that time by players and management.

Kieran McGeeney told me recently he had cut his training this year from three times daily to twice a day. Think of the image consultants, the psychologists, the guest trainers, the visits to rugby training camps in England, the will to win of the players. Think of trainer John McCloskey traveling the globe to pilfer the best ideas in sport from sources as diverse as the Chelsea soccer team and the San Antonio Spurs basketballers. Think also of their obsessive, talismanic manager. Yet they didn't get there, and their remarkable crusade is finally over.

The one-point defeat to Derry at Clones completes the circle, a fitting end after all since their journey began with us in Clones in 1999. The previous year we had toyed with them in the semifinal on our way to the Ulster title. At the final whistle Kieran McGeeney slumped disconsolately to his hunkers. One of my team-mates tousled his hair and
uttered the immortal words: "That's the end of you boys." As it turned out, nothing could be further from the truth. The following year they ran us close in a league play-off in Celtic Park.

When we duly met them again in that year's Ulster semi-final we were confident we would beat them. As the clock ran down on atitanic battle the teams were level. One of the Armagh forwards went to ground. We surrounded him without fouling. The referee thought otherwise and Oisin Mc-Conville nailed the long free. Ilike to think that the free not given to Armagh at a similar stage in last week's proceedings (by the man with the red nose and large hat) was reparation for that earlier error. The problem with this Armagh team, what ultimately held them back at the highest level, was that they couldn't score enough. They would almost always prevail in a war of attrition, but sometimes lost them because they couldn't score freely enough. In that seven year period they lost only one replay, against Kerry in 2000 semi-final when they still weren't fully formed. But they couldn't shaketeams off. Where Tyrone would come out and blow teams away Armagh toiled to get the same job done. Tyrone pulverised Fermanagh
in Croke Park in 2003.

The following year Armagh couldn't do the same job, managing a measly 11 points and losing by the minimum. In 2002 Kerry were beaten by a point. Tyrone took the same Kerry team out by the roots in 2003 holding them to five points and winning by seven. Armagh by contrast depended on massive defensive effort to squeeze through, winning a series of big championship games by a point (1999 v Derry, 2000 v Derry, 2002 final v Kerry, etc) by the same token they lost nearly all of their bigger games by point or two when they had posted very low tallies themselves. Last year their 1-13 simply wasn't enough against Kerry's 3-15.

This year they played two big games. In the first they played Donegal off the park, but managed to score only 1-8, losing by a point. Against us last week, they scored a paltry 0-9, again losing by a point. They were a remarkable team and have had a massive impact on the Gaelic football scene over the last decade. But the truth is they didn't win another All-Ireland because they were not good enough. "Deserve'sgot nothing to do with it".

[Armamike]

Can't disagree with Brolly's points.  The lack of scoring power has cost us greatly at the highest level stretching back to 1999. The one year that we had 5-6 forwards getting on the scoresheet we won the all-Ireland. The full forward line have been guilty of squandering chances in certain games, but whether it was tactics or just the personnel themselves, the lack of scores from the half fowards was the big problem.  Generally teams with ambitions of winning all-irelands need 4-5 scoring forwards from the 6.

[armaghniac]

Brolly's main point is valid, Armagh have never allowed another team score a large score, with the exception of gifting Kerry a goal last year. But we have often failed to score well at the other end. However, like a good barrister, Brolly uses the evidence selectively to support his argument. Comparing Tyrone v Fermanagh 03 and Armagh v Fermanagh 04 is about as useful as comparing Armagh v Laois 05 and Tyrone v Laois 06. We scored pretty freely in 04 against Donegal and some of our problems against Tyrone 05 and Kerry 06 were defensive failings.

Kernan's reign got off to a good start with Ronan Clarke coming on board, finding another class forward would do a lot to keep us going.

[Armaghtothebone]

Dear me Joe, at least get the facts right.It was Cathal O'Rourke who slotted the free over to equalise and Marsden who scored the winner from open play.Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!!
To be fair i think Joe has a fairly blinkered view of our recent past.
In 1999 we scored 3 12 against Down in the Ulster Final.We were 6 points down in as many minutes against Kerry in the drawn semi in 2000 and were level by half time.
We blew laois away in a Quarter Final and Donegal in at least one Ulster Final.We had 4 or 5 to spare against the Dubs in 03.On our day we scored as well as anyone.
The reasons we do'nt have 2 All Irelands
1999  We depended on 2 forwards.In the All Ireland semi that year v Meath Oisin could'nt buy a score.Family circumstances went against him.(This was the man who scored 2-6 in the Ulster Final that year)
2000 One kick, one mistake.Bumpy boots it dead and we're in the Final.He did'nt.It went to a replay and the rest is history.
2001 Galway beat us with the last kick of the game.
2002 The Gods smile on us.
2003 The Gods p*ss on us.Leaving aside the sending off, even the most die hard Tyronie would admit that 1 block decided that All Ireland. No question Tyrone were the better team over 70 minutes but in truth it all came down to one block.
2004 We have a man sent off, and loose a game that was there for the taking.
2005 We loose a game that could have gone either way.Fair play to wee Peter.He kills us with the pressure kick.
2006 For 25-30 minutes we have Kerry on the rack, but dont take the goal chances.They Lord it for the next 20 minutes.We dig deep and with 11 mins to go its a 2 point game.We make a stupid mistake and an era is effectively over.
To say we dont score is pure bo**ocks.
SOME DAYS WE JUST DIDNT SCORE ENOUGH  
   

[lawnseed 2]

actually joe brolly should take a bow because it was his prowess as a forward that forced armagh to develop the so called blanket defence (a fact that has been well established) basically armagh at in 99 didnt have a single forward capable of marking him. as far as im concerned joe k won one sam and lost two which is ok if you live in cross but not if you live in blackwatertown. he was a good motivator but his predessers can claim alot of the credit for his sucesses. personally im heartbroken that time has eroded a fantastic squad these lads were my team, my era and now i hope they go gracefully i couldnt stomoch them getting a hiding from the likes of kerry or dublin and then have to listen to spillane gloating that thats the end of puke football or we kicked their northern asses back up the north. one thing i have learned i will never ever not back a northern team (even tyrone) when they travell south. so it is fitting that it should end where it started in a game with derry. as for the young lads its gonna be very tough so far the u21s have only really brought arron k as a shoe in the rest havent really caught the eye. maybe in two or three years we could have a stab at an ulster title?? or a mckenna cup. one thing im fairly sure of enda mc nulty will be the only player of these bunch who'll make it as a future manager of armagh 

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Havta disagree with ya on a few points there lawnseed

he was a good motivator but his predessers can claim alot of the credit for his sucesses

The Two Brians deserve a lot of credit for the work they put in and the 2 Ulsters but there's a good chance that had they stayed on Sam 1 might never have come.

personally im heartbroken that time has eroded a fantastic squad these lads were my team, my era

We all enjoyed the success of the last few years but even if a few lads do retire, there'll be 30 fellas out representing Armagh next year and they'll deserve our support just as much as this team ever has.

so it is fitting that it should end where it started in a game with derry.

I'd say our current era began in ballybofey escaping with a draw after being 7 down after 10 minutes.

as for the young lads its gonna be very tough so far the u21s have only really brought arron k as a shoe in the rest havent really caught the eye.

Brian mallon and Ciaran McKeever are also both established intercounty footballers while there's plenty around the fringes - Swift, Mal Mackin, F Moriarty to name a few.

[Armamike]

It's always been a bit of a sore point with me that the 2 Brians never really got the recognition they deserved for putting together the blueprint of the team that went on to success at all-ireland level. True, they took the team as far as they could at that time, but the big advantage that Joe had was the find of Ronan Clarke (the last piece of the jigsaw) and McDonnell's further development on the bigger stage.  Despite all the extra bits and pieces that Kernan brought to the set up, it really all boiled down to him finding himself in the lucky position of having a new top class forward to add to McConville, Marsden and McDonnell.  If Clarke had been on the scene a couple of years earlier his presence would probably have been all that was needed to push Armagh over the line - particularly in 2000.

BTW lawnseed, you could add Paul Duffy to that list. As TAM says, there are are a good few others on the fringes.