Shoot to Kill 1982

[Donagh]

Looks like after 25 years the possibility of an inquest has moved a little closer



Coroner may be given access to shoot-to-kill files


Tuesday, December 04, 2007

By Chris Thornton

The PSNI is expected to declare today that they may let Northern Ireland's Senior Coroner see the top secret Stalker report after years of resistance.

Police are due to give John Leckey an answer to his request to see the classified material about the "shoot-to-kill" incidents in which police killed a teenager and five republicans 25 years ago.

A legal ruling earlier this year means the PSNI is obliged to let coroners see all material relevant to an inquest - unless they can obtain a Government gagging order.

But Government sources have indicated that the PSNI has not asked Secretary of State Shaun Woodward for a gag on the shoot-to-kill reports by English policeman John Stalker and Colin Sampson.

That means that as the PSNI returns to a preliminary inquest hearing to face Mr Leckey this morning, none of the legal avenues for restricting the report are in train.

However, access to Mr Leckey does not mean the reports would then be made public.

A legal battle has been fought for decades over the killings of teenager Michael Tighe, shot on November 24, 1982; IRA members Eugene Toman, Sean Burns and Gervaise McKerr, who were shot on November 11, 1982; and INLA members Roderick Carroll and Seamus Grew, shot on December 12, 1982.

Some police officers tried for the killings were cleared, but there have been persistent allegations that the dead men were shot without attempts to arrest them.

An inquest was briefly opened in 1983, but it was nine years before significant attempts to begin the cases were made.

Mr Leckey dropped the cases in 1994 because police refused to release the Stalker and Sampson reports.

If the PSNI climb down on that point today, he may be in a position to proceed with the inquests next year.

However, the extent of access may be critical.

Police have previously allowed coroners to see secret material, but in extremely controlled circumstances.

For example, a coroner hearing an inquest involving Army surveillance was not even allowed to take notes.

But if Mr Leckey decides that the documents are relevant to the inquests, there will be further battles over how much can be made public.

In 1994, one of the key issues was allowing former investigators from the Stalker and Sampson inquiries to refresh their memories by having access to the reports.

Last month, Assistant Chief Constable Alistair Finlay wrote to Mr Leckey to tell him the Stalker and Sampson reports remain classified as "top secret".

That raised concerns among some of the dead men's relatives that police intended to withhold the report.

At an earlier preliminary hearing, the PSNI said they were seeking legal advice about their position.

But Mr Leckey referred to a House of Lords ruling earlier this year that said coroners should see all material about a case to judge what is relevant, unless police secure public interest immunity from the Government.

At that October hearing, the Coroner said he could "see no reason why I should not now be provided with access to both reports".

[lynchbhoy]

doubt it..
the fudging will continue , with intermittent press releases, statements etc for another 20 years

until of course all witnesses and guilty parties have passed away...

[lynchbhoy]

Why cant these reports be made public? After all the RUC was not corrupt and has nothing to hide 

ahhh
but they're good at hiding corruption !

[Donagh]

Fight for the truth goes on.

Man's brother backs coroner order

The brother of an IRA man who was shot dead by police has backed an order to release reports into alleged "shoot to kill deaths".

On Wednesday, coroner John Leckey asked for the Stalker and Sampson reports by 9 November.

He was speaking at a preliminary hearing into the 1982 deaths of IRA men Eugene Toman, Sean Burns and Gervaise McKerr near Lurgan, Co Armagh.

Mr Toman's brother, Malachy, said his family had a "right to know" the truth.

"My mother and father died not knowing the truth, " he said.

"My brothers and sisters, we need some sort of closure, we lost our brother.

"My brother was murdered by state forces there were over 100 shots fired into that car.

"We have a right to know what happened to our loved ones, as everybody that has lost anybody through the Troubles has a right to know what happened."

Mr Leckey directed his order to release the reports to the new PSNI chief constable, Matt Baggott, who takes over on 22 September.

Apology

He was repeating a demand he made to former Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde in October 2007.

Mr Toman said he wanted the British government to "come out and say" it "conducted a shoot-to-kill policy within the six counties".

He said he wanted an apology but "definitely" did not want "finance" in relation to his brother's death.

"All I want is them to come out and say 'yes there was a shoot-to-kill policy, we could have arrested these men, but our policy at the time was to kill them'."

In November 1982, police fired 109 bullets into the car the three IRA men were travelling in after they claimed it crashed through a checkpoint.

It later emerged the three were suspected of involvement in the killings of three RUC officers in a bomb a fortnight earlier and had been under observation.

Mr Leckey also plans to hold inquests into the deaths of Catholic teenager Michael Tighe, shot dead by police at a hay shed near Craigavon, County Armagh in November 1982, and suspected INLA men Roddy Carroll and Seamus Grew, shot dead near Armagh in December 1982.

The government has always denied any "shoot-to-kill" policy existed and has resisted calls from families to look again at what happened.

Former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police Sir John Stalker was brought in to investigate. He was later replaced by Colin Sampson, Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police.

[Donagh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8VDPxP4B1E&feature=channel

[illdecide]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8VDPxP4B1E&feature=channel

Brings back memories that alright...

[Donagh]

Police to hand over secret reports on 'shoot-to-kill policy' during Northern Ireland Troubles

Thursday, 5 November 2009

Police in Northern Ireland are to comply with a court order to hand over top secret reports on an alleged officer shoot-to-kill policy during the Troubles, a senior commander revealed today.

While the PSNI is still seeking clarification on how much of the controversial Stalker and Sampson documents must be disclosed, Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris said the service would not go against the direction of the region's senior coroner John Leckey.

In September Mr Leckey gave new Chief Constable Matt Baggott until next Monday - November 9 - to release the never published reports to the Coroner's Court to assist his probe into the Royal Ulster Constabulary killings of six men in late 1982.

He issued the deadline in the face of long-standing police refusal to hand them to the courts.

Mr Harris today told the PSNI's oversight body - the NI Policing Board - that the service would not ignore its responsibility to the inquests.

"Of course we will comply with the coroner's direction but there are specific issues that we wish to address in respect of disclosure and the information that is being sought," he said.

"That is ongoing work and I think we will have some clarity around this on the November 9th but certainly we will comply with the coroner's direction and our responsibility to the coroner's court in respect of this inquest."

The alleged shoot-to-kill operations were carried out in the Co Armagh area in the weeks following the murders of three RUC officers in an IRA landmine.

They refer to three separate incidents: The shooting dead of IRA men Gervaise McKerr, Eugene Toman and John Burns in Lurgan on November 11 1982.

The shooting of Catholic teenager Michael Tighe near Craigavon on November 24 1982.

The killings of INLA suspects Seamus Grew and Roddy Carroll near Armagh city on December 12 1982.

The investigation into whether the police set out to kill was conducted by former Greater Manchester Police Deputy Chief Constable John Stalker and Sir Colin Sampson of the West Yorkshire Police.

While Mr Leckey has been given sight of their subsequent reports, he ordered that they were made available to the court so the inquests can finally get under way.

The coroner said the Chief Constable could make redactions if he considered them necessary and that he would then examine whether there were grounds to request the disclosure of further details ahead of another preliminary hearing on November 23.

SDLP Policing Board member Alex Attwood welcomed Mr Harris's pledge to comply with the order.

"It is a welcome principle that documents that do throw light upon the past become more widely available," he said.

"They may be redacted, they may be amended, but the principle nonetheless is a welcome one and I welcome the police accepting that principle."

[Donagh]

Shoot-to-kill files disclosure delayed

The PSNI has asked for more time to hand over secret reports into "shoot-to-kill" incidents to the coroners' court.
Wednesday, 11 November 2009
police spokesman said: "Regrettably the PSNI has been unable to meet the deadline set by the coroner for disclosure of the reports.

"This is due to the volume and nature of the material to be processed and the complexity of the issues involved."

This comes a week after the police promised to hand over the top secret material.

The police service notified the coroner in advance of what it called an "unavoidable" delay. It is understood the force wants the matter deferred until February 2010.

The investigation into the shoot-to-kill incidents was conducted by former Greater Manchester Police Deputy Chief Constable John Stalker and Sir Colin Sampson of the West Yorkshire Police.

Their reports have never been made public.

In September Coroner John Leckey gave new Chief Constable Matt Baggott until November 9 to release the never published reports to the Coroner's Court to assist his investigation.

The alleged shoot-to-kill operations were carried out in the Co Armagh area in the weeks following the murders of three RUC officers in an IRA landmine.

They refer to three separate incidents:

    * The shooting dead of IRA men Gervaise McKerr, Eugene Toman and John Burns in Lurgan on November 11 1982.
    * The shooting of Catholic teenager Michael Tighe near Craigavon on November 24 1982.
    * The killings of INLA suspects Seamus Grew and Roddy Carroll near Armagh city on December 12 1982.

Sinn Fein Policing Board member Martina Anderson said: "Sinn Fein intends to raise the issue as a matter of urgency as we will not allow bad practices of the RUC to be carried through into the PSNI.

"We are demanding that the Stalker Report is given to the coroner's office immediately so that these inquests can proceed as soon as possible."


http://www.banuanlae.org/

[orangeman]

Really - this is turning into a farce - how long do they really need to conclude this ?? Joke but no one is laughing.

[red hander]

See they've no problems charging a man with the killing of that gung-ho arsehole Nairac, a guy who colluded with the UVF on a regular basis and was in charge at the scene of the Miami massacre

[Evil Genius]

Hmmmm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8357482.stm
SA minister defends shoot-to-kill


Mr Mbalula said innocent people would inevitably get hurt

South Africa's deputy police minister has stood by his force's tough, shoot-to-kill policy, days after a three-year-old boy was shot dead by officers.

Fikile Mbalula said it was inevitable that innocent people would get caught in crossfire.

And referring to what he called "incorrigible criminals", he urged the police to "shoot the bastards".

The boy was killed on Saturday as police hunted a murder suspect, sparking a national outcry.

"Yes. Shoot the bastards. Hard-nut to crack, incorrigible criminals," Mr Mbalula said.

Sheer violence

"Where you are caught in combat with criminals, innocent people are going to die - not deliberately but in the exchange of fire. They are going to be caught on the wrong side, not deliberately, but unavoidably."

South Africa has one of the world's highest rates of violent crime with an average of 50 killings each day.

The government is pushing through changes to the country's Criminal Procedure Act to make it clearer when police will be able to use deadly force.

But opposition parties and other rights groups say such a policy has caused a spike in the loss of innocent lives, pointing to a series of recent incidents where people have been killed by the police.

Three-year-old Atlegang Phalane was shot dead in Midrand, near Johannesburg, as he sat in the back seat of a car next to his uncle.

Difficult decisions

The police officer is reported to have said that he thought the boy was carrying a firearm, though according to Moses Dlamini, from the Independent Complaints Directorate, no gun or object which could have been mistaken for a firearm was recovered from the car.

Answering questions on the changes in the National Assembly, President Jacob Zuma said that the sheer level of violent crime in South Africa made it very different to other countries.

"We are saying we need to fight crime and that when criminals are cornered, they take out guns. They don't warn, they kill, and many police have died as a result of that," he said.

He said officers should be supported when they had to make difficult decisions.

"On the spur of the moment what do you do as a policeman? Should you say, because I'm a very good policeman I am here, I have got a gun but I'm not going to shoot you?" he said.

[lynchbhoy]

I think the comparison ends after the fact that they were/are both 'apartheid' states !!

[redhugh]

Hmmmm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8357482.stm
SA minister defends shoot-to-kill


Mr Mbalula said innocent people would inevitably get hurt

South Africa's deputy police minister has stood by his force's tough, shoot-to-kill policy, days after a three-year-old boy was shot dead by officers.

Fikile Mbalula said it was inevitable that innocent people would get caught in crossfire.

And referring to what he called "incorrigible criminals", he urged the police to "shoot the b**tards".

The boy was killed on Saturday as police hunted a murder suspect, sparking a national outcry.

"Yes. Shoot the b**tards. Hard-nut to crack, incorrigible criminals," Mr Mbalula said.

Sheer violence

"Where you are caught in combat with criminals, innocent people are going to die - not deliberately but in the exchange of fire. They are going to be caught on the wrong side, not deliberately, but unavoidably."

South Africa has one of the world's highest rates of violent crime with an average of 50 killings each day.

The government is pushing through changes to the country's Criminal Procedure Act to make it clearer when police will be able to use deadly force.

But opposition parties and other rights groups say such a policy has caused a spike in the loss of innocent lives, pointing to a series of recent incidents where people have been killed by the police.

Three-year-old Atlegang Phalane was shot dead in Midrand, near Johannesburg, as he sat in the back seat of a car next to his uncle.

Difficult decisions

The police officer is reported to have said that he thought the boy was carrying a firearm, though according to Moses Dlamini, from the Independent Complaints Directorate, no gun or object which could have been mistaken for a firearm was recovered from the car.

Answering questions on the changes in the National Assembly, President Jacob Zuma said that the sheer level of violent crime in South Africa made it very different to other countries.

"We are saying we need to fight crime and that when criminals are cornered, they take out guns. They don't warn, they kill, and many police have died as a result of that," he said.

He said officers should be supported when they had to make difficult decisions.

"On the spur of the moment what do you do as a policeman? Should you say, because I'm a very good policeman I am here, I have got a gun but I'm not going to shoot you?" he said.

EG -What is your opinion on this?You have just posted the article, are you saying that you agree or disagree with this stance?

[Evil Genius]

EG -What is your opinion on this?You have just posted the article, are you saying that you agree or disagree with this stance?

I posted the article because it is interesting to see what people in another part of the world, who have gone through Troubles of their own, have to say on the topic.

As for myself, I cannot really justify a "Shoot-on-Sight" policy on grounds of principle. If nothing else, the danger to innocent bystanders makes it problematical for me.

That said, in the NI context, I cannot get at all exercised at the fate of the intended victims, or their proponents, since they considered themselves to be an "army", fighting a legitimate "war" which did not require them to issue warnings, or offer the chance of surrender. Therefore "Sauce for the Goose" and all that.

So whilst I have no doubt that this will inflame those close relatives of IRA members etc who may have been shot dead under such a policy, imo there are very many other  victims in the Troubles who warrant my sympathy before I get to those people.   

As for SA, I'm afraid I don't know enough about what's going on there to have a strong opinion either way.

P.S. I have always preferred the term "Shoot-on-Sight" to "Shoot-to-Kill", since the latter is a misnomer (i.e. in the vast majority of circumstances, you can't really "Shoot-to-Injure" etc)

[redhugh]

So to cut through the waffle and answer my question, you don't have an opinion on the article then?