Shoot to Kill 1982

[SammyG]

So we're back to the black and white 'all fenians=good, all prods=bad', yet again. Didn't take long this time.

You not have the balls either Sammy?

The balls for what?

My line has always been 100% clear, anyone who kills someone else (other than in self defence) should be tried for murder, no ifs no buts. The only one, on this thread, who won't call a spade a garden digging implement, is you.

[MW]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

Okay then, from what you know and in your opinion, was it murder?

In my opinion, yes.

Now, your response please.

[Donagh]

In my opinion, yes.

Now, your response please.

This thread is a discussion on the six men who were killed in Armagh in 1982, if you want my opinions on other killings then start another thread. If you believe these six men were murdered then what is your problem with the website and the families of the men drawing attention to it?

[MW]

In my opinion, yes.

Now, your response please.

This thread is a discussion on the six men who were killed in Armagh in 1982, if you want my opinions on other killings then start another thread. If you believe these six men were murdered then what is your problem with the website and the families of the men drawing attention to it?

My, my, that's convenient. You won't answer a straight question.

My problem is not with people drawing attention to the manner of these deaths. My problem is with people who clearly supported murder, by IRA and INLA members, of whoever they claimed was a legitimate target, and said that it wasn't murder or even a crime because it was a 'war', whinging and crying murder on the comparitively rare occasions when those IRA and INLA members ended up on the receiving end. For example the screaming hypocrisy of AP/RN referring to "murder" when it insistend till it was blue in the face that IRA atrocities such as Enniskillen, Teebane etc weren't even crimes never mind murder.

This website uses as part of its 'evidence' articles from AP/RN, quotes from the INLA/IRSP, links to Noraid, links to the Sinn Fein wesbite and quotes from a provisional republican publication praising its dead "volunteers". Tributes to the five terrorists are quoted including euphemistic and completely non-condemnatory referecnes to their "active" role in the IRA/INLA.

None of this suggests to me that those behind the website have any problem with murder per se, or even that they can evenly apply the term murder rather than excluding the majority of murders from that definition simply because they were carried out by republicans (so there's nothing to suggest they don'e fall into they category of people outlined in my first paragraph).Which is were your opinion comes in too...

[Donagh]

Listen MW, there is no factually incorrect information on the website. From what I can see your objections are based on assumptions and your political opinions. What you have to recognise is that there are many other people with different opinions to you and that they are equally as valid.

This website has been established to remember those specific events in 1982 and to help the families draw attention to their ongoing campaigns. If you are offended by the friends and families of these men doing so, then don't go near the site, don't attend any of the events and don't be making assumptions about the motivations of the site owners.

Your constant attempt to draw out this thread with comparisons to Sadam and loyalist paramilitaries is deeply offensive to the friends and families of the men. In fairness, you have recognised that the RUC murdered these men. There were many other people murdered during the conflict here by the IRA, the INLA and British army, but this website is not concerned with those, only the specific events of 1982. As I said, you don't know the views of the site creators, the men's families and friends or even their community's views on the other killings so don't be pretending that you do.

[SammyG]

In my opinion, yes.

Now, your response please.

This thread is a discussion on the six men who were killed in Armagh in 1982, if you want my opinions on other killings then start another thread. If you believe these six men were murdered then what is your problem with the website and the families of the men drawing attention to it?

Sorry what was that you were saying about balls?

[stew]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

Okay then, from what you know and in your opinion, was it murder?

Any chance you could answer the previous question before asking another one?

No, because the issue under discussion here is the six men in 1982. As I said before, if he hasn't the balls to recognise that without all the other bullshit then he is a coward.

He has been a coward from day one Donagh, this is not any recent development.

[Donagh]

In my opinion, yes.

Now, your response please.

This thread is a discussion on the six men who were killed in Armagh in 1982, if you want my opinions on other killings then start another thread. If you believe these six men were murdered then what is your problem with the website and the families of the men drawing attention to it?

Sorry what was that you were saying about balls?

Well Sammy instead of snipping why don't you start those other threads and test me?

[MW]

Your constant attempt to draw out this thread with comparisons to Sadam

Oh FFS. Your ability to misunderstand just about anything amazes me. I was clearly using Saddam to refer to the fact that I opposed his fate (i.e. the death penalty) - indeed if memory serves me correctly I didn't even bring him into the discussion.

and loyalist paramilitaries is deeply offensive to the friends and families of the men.

I draw little distinction between republican and loyalist brands of terrorist.

In fairness, you have recognised that the RUC murdered these men. There were many other people murdered during the conflict here by the IRA, the INLA and British army, but this website is not concerned with those, only the specific events of 1982. As I said, you don't know the views of the site creators, the men's families and friends or even their community's views on the other killings so don't be pretending that you do.

Actually, what I do know is the view of the IRA, the INLA, the IRSP, Noraid, Sinn Fein and AP/RN. They were kind enough to let us know ad nauseum. (pun intended in that last word). All of them said that the murders carried out by republican terrorists were not murder at all, weren't even crimes - there was a war on and they could kill whoever they liked, in cold blood (as they did in their many hundreds) as long as they deemed them to fall into a category of 'legitimate targets'. (I know for example that in the era concerned, the IRA murdered, in cold blood, an 86 year old man in his own home and Gerry Adams said the ony complaint he had got from supporters was that it hadn't been done earlier. I know that the IRA murdered an Ulster Unionist Assemblyman for the crime of being elected by the unionist community. I know the INLA blew up a bar to kill 11 soldiers as well as teenage Protestant girls...etc etc. I know that hundreds of police officers and soliders were murdered in cold blood at home or on their way home from work, in their day jobs, etc. And all the while these organisations, and their political representatives in SF and the IRSP, justified these murders and said they weren't murder at all.).

I know that the five men I'm referring to were members of the IRA and INLA. I know that further than this they were "active" members - the website is happy to tell me this. I know that this wesbite quotes from AP/RN, from the INLA/IRSP and from a provisional republican tribute to its dead 'volunteers'. I know it links to the SF and Noraid websites. I don't know if those behind the website endorse the line taken by any of those organisations but I do know they don't express any disapproval or opposition to it. I know that there are tributes to the five dead paramilitaries on the website, even giving their paramiliatary "rank", and that their "careers" are referred to in terms I've quoted which are euphemistic and completely non-condemnatory of their violence.

They have a right to their view of the Troubles. They have a right to campaign on these deaths. Equally I have a right to pick them up on what I see as a glaring double standard, becuase quite frankly anyone for anyone who's able to quote from AP/RN, use Noraid as evidence, and use tributes to 'active' IRA/INLA members strikes me as a hypocrites if they're going to complain about murder, and use that term. Because those very organisations, those publications, and these men, claimed the right of republican paramilitaries to commit mass murder and argued that this was a war, and that these weren't crimes.

Anyway, I've said my bit now, and I don't think we're going to get any further on this thread. I think what it highlights as if anyone needed it is that this society hasn't yet hit on a method of dealing with its scarred recent past.

[MW]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

Okay then, from what you know and in your opinion, was it murder?

Any chance you could answer the previous question before asking another one?

No, because the issue under discussion here is the six men in 1982. As I said before, if he hasn't the balls to recognise that without all the other bullshit then he is a coward.

He has been a coward from day one Donagh, this is not any recent development.

[Donagh]

That's an honest and succinct post MW. I think it's probably the first time in our little tête à têtes that you have actually recognized the right of republicans and nationalists to hold a different view on the conflict without telling us what our view should be  - and I thank you for that.

To answer your earlier question on how I view the actions of the IRA, well in many ways they are a mirror image of yours. I am against all killing, but mostly I couldn't have cared when another RUC member or Brit solider got killed, because I viewed them in the same way that you viewed the IRA. They terrorized my family and my community. In the earlier days they committed cold blooded murder and later they organized the loyalist gangs to do it for them. So the way I saw it they probably had it coming to them, if not for their own actions but as payback for others in their respective organizations.

I appreciate that's nowhere near how you see things and I respect that, but the conflict as dirty and nasty as it was, had us all thinking and acting in ways which would be unimaginable in a normal society.

[SammyG]

That's an honest and succinct post MW. I think it's probably the first time in our little tête à têtes that you have actually recognized the right of republicans and nationalists to hold a different view on the conflict without telling us what our view should be  - and I thank you for that.

To answer your earlier question on how I view the actions of the IRA, well in many ways they are a mirror image of yours. I am against all killing, but mostly I couldn't have cared when another RUC member or Brit solider got killed, because I viewed them in the same way that you viewed the IRA. They terrorized my family and my community. In the earlier days they committed cold blooded murder and later they organized the loyalist gangs to do it for them. So the way I saw it they probably had it coming to them, if not for their own actions but as payback for others in their respective organizations.

I appreciate that's nowhere near how you see things and I respect that, but the conflict as dirty and nasty as it was, had us all thinking and acting in ways which would be unimaginable in a normal society.

Do you have the same problem with all the (many more) Republican gangs that they 'ran'?

[Donagh]

Do you have the same problem with all the (many more) Republican gangs that they 'ran'?

Many more Sammy? Somehow I doubt it but any Irish 'republican' working for the Brits is obviously not a republican and I would shed no tears for such a person meeting a sticky end.

[Rossfan]

Do you have the same problem with all the (many more) Republican gangs that they 'ran'?

Is this some of the revisionism you are being accused of on another thread 
I can see the RUC setting up groups to kill their colleagues alright 

[Donagh]

I can see the RUC setting up groups to kill their colleagues alright 

Actually Special Branch allowed the killings of RUC officers to continue to protect some very high level informants.
I still think not all those high level informants have been outed.............. YET

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