Shoot to Kill 1982

[Donagh]

BTW Donagh what do you mean by "the natives" in your first post in the thread?

I find your attitude to non-nationalists most bizarre and confusing.

One minute you're referring to the IRA/INLA as "the natives", in contrast to the police. Suggesting that police officers born and brought up in Northern Ireland, serving in Northern Ireland, were not "natives".

Yet on a previous thread last week, you referred to UK citizens born and brought up in Northern Ireland, part of the UK, and serving in the UK army, as "quislings" and "Irish mercenaries".

This suggests to me two things:

1 - You don't accept the right of the British people from Northern Ireland to participate in their own country, and join their own national army - those that do are "quislings" and "mercenaries". This says to me that you don't accept the British identity of the majority in Northern Ireland. (and the only identity you will ascribe is part of "the Irish nation", as in "bringing disgrace to the nation")

2 - People from Northern Ireland who aren't nationalist/republican, who support the Union and participated in their own state, are somehow not "natives".

Both views are offensive and alarming on their own, but it's hard to see how one man's brain can accomodate both at the same time

My use of the word "natives" was simply a reference to the "tally-ho, slap it into the gollywogs" attitude of the British state that murdered Irish people at will during the conflict here. Don't read too much into it.

[Donagh]

Donagh

Are you having trouble reading or our you being deliberately awkward? MW has explained himself 3 or 4 times and each time you keep mis-quoting him and making up conspiracy theories.

No I haven't - he has stated twice that IRA members deserve to die.

[SammyG]

Donagh

Are you having trouble reading or our you being deliberately awkward? MW has explained himself 3 or 4 times and each time you keep mis-quoting him and making up conspiracy theories.

No I haven't - he has stated twice that IRA members deserve to die.

Where?

[MW]

You've picked me up wrong, obviously. Anyone who belonged to a terrorist group, whose very raison d'etre from day to day was murder, and advocated going round dishing out cold-blooded killings to anyone they deemed it was 'legitimate' to, and furthermore actually carried out such cold-blooded killings - if they ended up being shot dead, then it was nothing less than they deserved. And in their worldview, and that of their supporters,  it can surely have been nothing less than legitimate. Unlike them, of course, I take a different view of such killings.

Let me get this clear now, in case I have picked you up wrong. Now you're not saying all IRA volunteers deserve to die, but only IRA volunteers that went around advocating killing legitimate targets, deserve to die? So taking into account your new prerequisite for death sentence,

You are either an idiot or deliberately misrepresenting what I've said. I've made clear on this very page FFS that I oppose the death sentence, even for genocidal mass murdering dictators like Saddam Hussein. I've made equally clear that the large number of occasions when IRA/INLA/UVF/UFF terrorists were arrested and tried was the correct course of action, whereas killing them (execpt where caught in committing a terrorist attack) was not right and I didn't support this. By the way I said not just advocating killings but carrying them out.

where does that leave the 6 men in 1982? Did they go around advocating and dishing out killings, or is membership of the IRA enough for you to assume they fulfilled your prerequisite. If so, how have I picked you up wrong?

Five, Donagh, five. You know I'm talking about the IRA and INLA members and not Michael Tighe. Republicans and others have been quite clear about these men's "active" status in the IRA/INLA.

Incidentally, who are you to presume that everyone who joins such a group, their families, and supporters have a single "worldview"

The view of the IRA and INLA as organisations, and their cheerleaders in Sinn Fein and the IRSP, as organisations, was that it was legitimate to commit cold-blooded murder against anyone they deemed it legitimate to murder.

up wrong. You have been very clear. Nationalists who joined the IRA deserved to die, without trial or jury if necessary.

This is actually no more than a complete lie.

Unionists who joined the other main terrorist groups i.e. the RUC (a view as valid as yours and one shared by a large section of the community) do not deserve the same treatment.

The thing is, the RUC weren't going round killing people, and cold-blooded killing wasn't advocated as part of the police's longstandaing policy. No-one was claiming the police had the right to go out and shoot and blow up whoever they deemed they should - and they didn't kill hundreds upon hundreds of people like the IRA and INLA. Finding a police officer who opposed cold-blooded killing wasn't very difficult - that was why many joined, to do their best to prevent just such killing. Finding one who said it was OK just to go shooting and bombing all round them would have been. Whereas finding an IRA or INLA terrorist who said it wasn't OK for the IRA and INLA to carry out cold-blooded killings would have been an amazing discovery since this was their modus operandi. Oh and I've been quite clear that UVF/UDA terrorist killers who were killed deserved their fate.

More of the same nonsensical rubbish again. What's your view of the RUC personnel that carried out these murders? They actively participated in carrying out the cold-blooded killing of these men. They were members of a paramilitary organization and organized loyalist murder gangs. Obviously they meet your prerequisite for capital punishment, so I assume they also deserve to be put to death without trial? Or is it simply a case of state paramilitaries being 'legal' in your view and the IRA were 'illegal'? Unionist right, republican wrong, Unionist killing legal, republican killing wrong? Change the record ffs...

How. Many. F**king. Times. I'm an opponent of capital punishment. And I view loyalist killers in exactly the same way as I view republican killers.

[MW]

What is your view?

I've understood you quite well. You've stated twice that IRA members deserve to die

No, I haven't.

My view is the six men were murdered by the state. Even though I am closer to the thinking of the six men than you will ever be, I am not so arrogant to presume to know what their views were or to understand the hurt of the families that saw their loved ones put to death without trial.

Do you think then these men should have been arrested and tried as criminals? I do.

I can't grasp your position. From what I'd previously read of your posts, especially your support for the hunger strikers, I'd thought I'd picked up hints that you didn't see Troubles killings as murders, or even crimes.

[Donagh]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

[MW]

Donagh

Are you having trouble reading or our you being deliberately awkward? MW has explained himself 3 or 4 times and each time you keep mis-quoting him and making up conspiracy theories.

No I haven't - he has stated twice that IRA members deserve to die.

Yet again - no, I haven't.

For the love of God, is it really that difficult to grasp that my view of terrorist killers who met the same fate that the advocated for and carried out on other people, is that they deserved such a fate for precisely that reason? And that I do not advocate such a fate?

I've already given plenty of stark examples to help you understand this. Child killers, Saddam Hussein, Nazi war criminals. Do you think I advoate the IRA killing of John Bingham or Joe Bratty?

[MW]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

[Donagh]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

Okay then, from what you know and in your opinion, was it murder?

[SammyG]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

Okay then, from what you know and in your opinion, was it murder?

Any chance you could answer the previous question before asking another one?

[his holiness nb]

Any chance you could answer the previous question before asking another one?

Sammy you do realise thats the most hypocritical post ever coming from you 

[Donagh]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

Okay then, from what you know and in your opinion, was it murder?

Any chance you could answer the previous question before asking another one?

No, because the issue under discussion here is the six men in 1982. As I said before, if he hasn't the balls to recognise that without all the other bullshit then he is a coward.

[SammyG]

Any chance you could answer the previous question before asking another one?

Sammy you do realise thats the most hypocritical post ever coming from you 

If you say so. Given that MW has answered Donagh several times, it's hardly a big leap to ask him to answer one question.

[SammyG]

Ah quit the bullshit and trying to muddy the issue with references to Sadam and loyalists. The issue here is clear:

-- the RUC murdered six men in cold blood. Do you agree?

If there was a decision to 'take out' men who weren't armed and didn't pose a threat then yes I would regard that as murder.

Now, I'd be interested in whether you regard the many hundreds of IRA and INLA killings as murder.

Okay then, from what you know and in your opinion, was it murder?

Any chance you could answer the previous question before asking another one?

No, because the issue under discussion here is the six men in 1982. As I said before, if he hasn't the balls to recognise that without all the other bullshit then he is a coward.

So we're back to the black and white 'all fenians=good, all prods=bad', yet again. Didn't take long this time.

[Donagh]

So we're back to the black and white 'all fenians=good, all prods=bad', yet again. Didn't take long this time.

You not have the balls either Sammy?