Author Topic: 11th night bonfires  (Read 34615 times)

6th sam

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #195 on: July 12, 2017, 01:02:35 PM »
A lot of good points , the Dunloy perspective is interesting.
Dclane is being ridiculed for making a very reasonable point. Part of the reason the ridiculous behaviour around the twelfth persists is because nationalists haven't done a very good job of challenging it.
The viewpoint of sit back and ignore it, is the main reason why it persists. If the blacks in Alabama in the 60s didn't challenge the status quo , there'd still be segregation.
I think the points re insecurities are well made, and we need to respect and try to address these unionist insecurities .
However , we must challenge the hatred that has been portrayed as normal , and a positive cultural experience.
We must also challenge the state financial support and expenditure on this unacceptable behaviour.
There are several non-threatening traditions around the music and the community element , which those brought up in that tradition would find hard to give up. But the negative , hatefilled, domination element must be challenged by politicians, isolating the defence of this nonsense by the main unuionist parties and the Tories.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 01:04:12 PM by 6th sam »

Kilkevan

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #196 on: July 12, 2017, 01:35:50 PM »
A lot of good points , the Dunloy perspective is interesting.
Dclane is being ridiculed for making a very reasonable point. Part of the reason the ridiculous behaviour around the twelfth persists is because nationalists haven't done a very good job of challenging it.
The viewpoint of sit back and ignore it, is the main reason why it persists. If the blacks in Alabama in the 60s didn't challenge the status quo , there'd still be segregation.
I think the points re insecurities are well made, and we need to respect and try to address these unionist insecurities .
However , we must challenge the hatred that has been portrayed as normal , and a positive cultural experience.
We must also challenge the state financial support and expenditure on this unacceptable behaviour.
There are several non-threatening traditions around the music and the community element , which those brought up in that tradition would find hard to give up. But the negative , hatefilled, domination element must be challenged by politicians, isolating the defence of this nonsense by the main unuionist parties and the Tories.

A lot has been achieved in terms of where they can and can't march. A lot of areas which saw contentious parades in the past no longer see them but it's debatable as to how far they can be pushed. They certainly shouldn't have the right to parade through Belfast city centre but take a look at the volume of people out there today, BBC iPlayer has coverage, and it's obvious how difficult pushing them out of there would be. Whilst you're right in aspects of the black rights movement in the US, they still haven't won out. Cops in America still get away with gunning down black guys, black rights, particularly in the southern states are still not completely won. In grossly unfair societies things don't change quickly. Same in the Six Counties.

In my opinion, and I stand to be corrected by northern posters here, the situation has reached a sort of uncomfortable medium. Few parades pass flashpoint areas these days and so they and the bonfires, which are mainly based in unionist/loyalist areas, have lesser immediate impact on the lives of nationalists/republicans these days.

The ideal situation would be that these events were kept exclusively to unionist/loyalist areas and were self-funding but the immediate effects are not felt as strongly as in the past and therefore direct action is no longer as necessary as in the past. When you're irritated by something you have to ask whether it's worth taking the risks associated with taking something on directly and if it's not then your actions have to be subtler.

Ultimately, most nationalists/republicans envisage a united Ireland at some point in the future and know that kicking and screaming about parades and bonfires will delay that day further. Sometimes taking action is the right course, sometimes you have to play the long game. What's the point of creating a stink in the short term knowing you won't win and will only hurt your ultimate goal?

Also, most people are spun out by conflict. Whilst the peace in the Six Counties might be an uneasy one when compared to the rest of Ireland, or from my experience Wales, it is far better than the situation twenty years ago. I get a sense, especially from the nationalist/republican side that their lives are far better than they ever were and they can envisage further progress being made peacefully. As I said, I stand to be corrected by northern posters who actually live the situation but that's my reading.

Kilkevan

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #197 on: July 12, 2017, 01:45:05 PM »
Incidentally, I was right that the Falls does have an "alternative twelfth" and I would take this as an example of indirect action.

I'd be interested to know whether any other Falls venues do anything similar.




And now, having watched an hour fifteen minutes of pure garbage on BBC1 NI, I'm off to clean my ears with some lovely Wolfe Tones ditties.

imtommygunn

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #198 on: July 12, 2017, 01:59:13 PM »
There are more than you might think in contentious areas. Donegall street, ardoyne, short strand.

They are restricted to a drum beat etc and then the locals are penned in.

There are still a few but less than there used to be no doubt.

Definitely moving in the right direction though.

Kilkevan

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #199 on: July 12, 2017, 02:26:12 PM »
There are more than you might think in contentious areas. Donegall street, ardoyne, short strand.

They are restricted to a drum beat etc and then the locals are penned in.

There are still a few but less than there used to be no doubt.

Definitely moving in the right direction though.

Slightly off topic but is Donegall Street not just a city centre street? Or the bottom of it at Waring Street considered close to the Westlink and near the Falls?

imtommygunn

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #200 on: July 12, 2017, 02:32:04 PM »
It is but there is a catholic church at the other end up near carrickhill where there has been a lot of contention before. (There was some controversy the other year with some bands "misbehaving" which led to this)

DickyRock

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #201 on: July 12, 2017, 02:38:50 PM »
Had the unfortunate task of leaving the Mother in Law to the Europa bus station this morning. She couldn't have picked a better time ::) Right in the middle of the marches. Abandoned the car on Ormeau Road and then lead her on foot to the Europa. Can't fathom how anyone can enjoy that. The flutes are blowing that hard to be heard above the drums, which are just beat as loudly as they can be. Had to run across the Bedford Street between bands.

armaghniac

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If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #203 on: July 12, 2017, 03:07:49 PM »
John O' Dowd
 ✔  ‎@JohnODowdSF 

Lurgan & Portadown bonfires with stolen posters & GAA flags all to be burnt in a public display of a hate crime. I have reported all to PSNI



Lookit

yellowcard

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #204 on: July 12, 2017, 03:13:48 PM »
Just looking at the Twelfth coverage on BBC1 NI. I never realised they marched through the city centre of Belfast. I assumed these days that they mainly marched through unionist/loyalist areas save the odd place where they passed areas of friction. I've been to a few nationalist/republican parades in Belfast, but they've always gone along the Falls Road. I always recognised the orange parades as sectarian but letting this pish march through the city centre is pure sh1te, basically telling Catholics they're not welcome downtown on the day.

Out of interest, could any Belfast posters tell me what Catholics/nationalists/republicans do on these days? I had heard that there is a rebel fest on the Falls with wall-to-wall rebel singers in the pubs but I don't know if that's true.

A good many go to work.  If you manage to get there and home again, it's the best place to be to ignore the shite.

Is everyone not off with it being a bank holiday though? I know not everyone, bar staff, nurses, police etc, gets a bank holiday but I presumed the majority would.

It seems to be getting less crowds every year. I am working ( self employed ) so no impact there
It only gets to you if you let it, they used to March up
Our Main Street in dunloy but annual road sit downs and protest have changed all that
A prodestant friend of mine asks my once did it bother me
I said
No if someone wants to wear a bowler hat and a orange sash and walk somewhere looking like that to commemorate a Dutchman crossing a river in the republic 400 years ago then knock yourself out

The confrontation only happens because they don't want to March in their own areas they want to go to as many nationalist areas as they can and rub your nose in it
See Ardoyne today


The parades commission has changed most of that but not all see things are slowly changing

Imm not a shrink but when you try and analyse their mental state it's just insecurities about their national identity
They know deep down this is Ireland and not the U.K. from a moral perspective so it's really a case of
"Thou  doth protest to much "
I bit like who are are you trying to kid here us or yourselves

Agree totally.

It's total insecurity and a knowledge that their future as a part of the UK is getting less secure by the year. The unionist leaders do not discourage these bonfire hate fests because they know that they rely on this same hate and division to prolong the union. Deep down they do not ever want the 2 communities to come together so the predominantly middle class often sanctimonious leaders of the DUP allow the working class loyalists to whip up unionists into a frenzy. It helps maintain and deepen division so that communities become more polarised. They are playing on the emotions and fear of the working class unionists to maintain the status quo and come election time it is their base line tactic.   

dclane

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #205 on: July 12, 2017, 03:13:58 PM »
Incidentally, I was right that the Falls does have an "alternative twelfth" and I would take this as an example of indirect action.

I'd be interested to know whether any other Falls venues do anything similar.




And now, having watched an hour fifteen minutes of pure garbage on BBC1 NI, I'm off to clean my ears with some lovely Wolfe Tones ditties.
You watched an hour and 15 mins of it? Why? Just so you could complain?  Surely that's a sign of madness. Watching something that annoys you.
Btw the Wolfe Tones and those that listen to them are no better than the Unionists and their drums.

Kilkevan

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #206 on: July 12, 2017, 03:21:40 PM »
It is but there is a catholic church at the other end up near carrickhill where there has been a lot of contention before. (There was some controversy the other year with some bands "misbehaving" which led to this)

Thanks.

Had the unfortunate task of leaving the Mother in Law to the Europa bus station this morning. She couldn't have picked a better time ::) Right in the middle of the marches. Abandoned the car on Ormeau Road and then lead her on foot to the Europa. Can't fathom how anyone can enjoy that. The flutes are blowing that hard to be heard above the drums, which are just beat as loudly as they can be. Had to run across the Bedford Street between bands.

Just get this tune into your head "it was old and it was beautiful, and it's colours they are fine"... Now, no matter how loud the drums or screechy the flutes you have about 95% of their repertoire going through your brain anyway.

Incidentally, I was right that the Falls does have an "alternative twelfth" and I would take this as an example of indirect action.

I'd be interested to know whether any other Falls venues do anything similar.




And now, having watched an hour fifteen minutes of pure garbage on BBC1 NI, I'm off to clean my ears with some lovely Wolfe Tones ditties.
You watched an hour and 15 mins of it? Why? Just so you could complain?  Surely that's a sign of madness. Watching something that annoys you.
Btw the Wolfe Tones and those that listen to them are no better than the Unionists and their drums.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 03:27:55 PM by Kilkevan »



punt kick

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #209 on: July 12, 2017, 04:29:17 PM »
Pretty much says it all. :)