Hamas attack Israel & subsequent genocide

[Lubo Moravcik]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

[Milltown Row2]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

Would you call children that are killed in war as non combatants

of course, why would anyone consider them combatants...

I haven't seen that term used for the deaths in Gaza, its generally women and children killed that has been used

[Lubo Moravcik]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

Page 2 - 'A desperate people resorting to desperate measures'.

That's directly excusing murder of innocent non combatant civilians.

[Lubo Moravcik]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

Page 2 - 'A desperate people resorting to desperate measures'.

That's directly excusing murder of innocent non combatant civilians.

From your good self - page 4.

'Barbaric is 75 years of occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Barbaric is the silence of western leaders to Israel's actions and their pathetic response to yesterdays HEROIC ACTIONS by Palestinians'.

Oh dear.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

Page 2 - 'A desperate people resorting to desperate measures'.

That's directly excusing murder of innocent non combatant civilians.

From your good self - page 4.

'Barbaric is 75 years of occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Barbaric is the silence of western leaders to Israel's actions and their pathetic response to yesterdays HEROIC ACTIONS by Palestinians'.

Oh dear.

as I said bad faith...  all my posts are there so read on.

I support peace, there has been none for palestinans since the nakba. I support the right to resist an occupation through all means in line with International law. Peaceful efforts have failed due to Israel and the west. Hamas (the military side) are a resistence group and I support them in line with International law, I don't support any war crimes or act outside of that.

[greatpoint]

Western standards laid bare for all to see:

I'm not sure the term "Western" is appropriate, every west European country and Canada, Australia and New Zealand support the ICC.

The USA don't.

Then the post should have referred to the USA and not to "Western".

While your post shouldn't have made the claim that "every western country" supports the ICC.

The point I was making is that the "western" world were up and arms and rightly so when Russia invaded Ukraine, sanctions, diplomats getting banned etc etc, but when Israel starts slaughtering the Palestinians on a scale that would make Pol Pot blush, there's none of the same concern.

Is there any nuance at all between the two conflicts or do you reckon they're directly comparable?

The direct comparison is that innocent women and children are being killed in both.

what other nuance do you need?

So given that innocent women and children were killed in the Second World War, it must therefore be directly comparable to the conflict in Gaza?

Can you see the drawbacks of using this kind of reasoning?

And some of those who did such things in WW2 ended up at the Nuremberg trials...

Heck, even the Brits showed a bit of shame for what Bomber Harris did in Dresden but he didn't see jail time when he should have.

So you're saying you genuinely believe that the two conflicts are directly comparable and any nuances can be dismissed? I'm not sure if you're being deliberately disingenuous or just ignorant here.

[Lubo Moravcik]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

Page 2 - 'A desperate people resorting to desperate measures'.

That's directly excusing murder of innocent non combatant civilians.

From your good self - page 4.

'Barbaric is 75 years of occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Barbaric is the silence of western leaders to Israel's actions and their pathetic response to yesterdays HEROIC ACTIONS by Palestinians'.

Oh dear.

as I said bad faith...  all my posts are there so read on.

I support peace, there has been none for palestinans since the nakba. I support the right to resist an occupation through all means in line with International law. Peaceful efforts have failed due to Israel and the west. Hamas (the military side) are a resistence group and I support them in line with International law, I don't support any war crimes or act outside of that.

Yes that's all very nice but you described their actions on Oct 7th as 'heroic'. Nice bit of attempted backtracking.

Despite posting that yourself you can't see any blind support for Hamas and accused me of 'bad faith' for even suggesting it.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

Would you call children that are killed in war as non combatants

of course, why would anyone consider them combatants...

I haven't seen that term used for the deaths in Gaza, its generally women and children killed that has been used

true, in gaza if you are male and non combatant you don't really count. In Israel there is conscription and more Female IDF so speaking in women and children isn't as clear.

[Milltown Row2]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

Would you call children that are killed in war as non combatants

of course, why would anyone consider them combatants...

I haven't seen that term used for the deaths in Gaza, its generally women and children killed that has been used

true, in gaza if you are male and non combatant you don't really count. In Israel there is conscription and more Female IDF so speaking in women and children isn't as clear.

So just use it for Israeli deaths as they have conscription? If you are an unarmed woman or child from any side you are still a woman or child.

I'm an ends doesn't justify the means type person, one loss of life is one too many. So many senseless deaths here over the years hasn't really got us any further, the shift in population will, and won't cause any deaths

I've no idea how they can solve the Gaza situation as Israel won't be going anywhere and the Palestinians will rebuild and have another generation of people that have been tortured/killed and locked up, mad cycle.

Unless there is a moderate government in Israel then this won't even be fixed in our lifetime

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

Page 2 - 'A desperate people resorting to desperate measures'.

That's directly excusing murder of innocent non combatant civilians.

From your good self - page 4.

'Barbaric is 75 years of occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Barbaric is the silence of western leaders to Israel's actions and their pathetic response to yesterdays HEROIC ACTIONS by Palestinians'.

Oh dear.

as I said bad faith...  all my posts are there so read on.

I support peace, there has been none for palestinans since the nakba. I support the right to resist an occupation through all means in line with International law. Peaceful efforts have failed due to Israel and the west. Hamas (the military side) are a resistence group and I support them in line with International law, I don't support any war crimes or act outside of that.

Yes that's all very nice but you described their actions on Oct 7th as 'heroic'. Nice bit of attempted backtracking.

Despite posting that yourself you can't see any blind support for Hamas and accused me of 'bad faith' for even suggesting it.

the Warsaw ghetto uprising was considered the greatest act of resistence against the Nazis.

I am not comparing wars/conflicts as to do so creates ambiguity and there are no perfect direct comparisons.

but acts of resistence (generally speaking) against occupation have and are been considered heroic and great etc.  Only bad faith zionists or those who who rather only support Palestinians while they remain caged and occupied would take that as some sort of blind support for inidividiual acts within that resistence that led to the murdering of non combatants (which includes children women, men, elderly etc.)

[whitey]

The whole thing doesn't make any sense

Netanyahu was about to get booted out of office and a less hardline Israeli PM was the likely successor

World opinion in general was very sympathetic toward the Palestinians

Relations were being normalized between Israeli and other Muslim countries

Now all of that "progress" has gone up in flames

I asked this yesterday and I'll ask it again- What exactly we're Hamas hoping to accomplish by their actions on 10/07?

Not alone has their country been destroyed and tens of thousands of their civilians killed, but they may very well get Trump elected ....you know Trump, the guy who tried to ban Muslims from entering the US

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

Would you call children that are killed in war as non combatants

of course, why would anyone consider them combatants...

I haven't seen that term used for the deaths in Gaza, its generally women and children killed that has been used

true, in gaza if you are male and non combatant you don't really count. In Israel there is conscription and more Female IDF so speaking in women and children isn't as clear.

So just use it for Israeli deaths as they have conscription? If you are an unarmed woman or child from any side you are still a woman or child.

I'm an ends doesn't justify the means type person, one loss of life is one too many. So many senseless deaths here over the years hasn't really got us any further, the shift in population will, and won't cause any deaths

I've no idea how they can solve the Gaza situation as Israel won't be going anywhere and the Palestinians will rebuild and have another generation of people that have been tortured/killed and locked up, mad cycle.

Unless there is a moderate government in Israel then this won't even be fixed in our lifetime

Milltown I know you are a let the palestinans continue to suffer under their occupation until the occupier decides otherwise guy. the west donw nothing for 75 years only arm and watch on as Israel every few years 'mows the lawn'... I support international  Law ans it allows resistence and that threshold for armed resistence is clearly been met for Palestinans to rise up against their oppressor and occupier and I fully support that. ( within international law)

if you are a non combatant you are a civilian etc. which would include men, women and children. As stated if you provide women and children for the Israeli dead many will be combantants, the Israeli dead is usually provided as a total including both, Palestinians are usually provided as women and children and a total number.

[Lubo Moravcik]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

Page 2 - 'A desperate people resorting to desperate measures'.

That's directly excusing murder of innocent non combatant civilians.

From your good self - page 4.

'Barbaric is 75 years of occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Barbaric is the silence of western leaders to Israel's actions and their pathetic response to yesterdays HEROIC ACTIONS by Palestinians'.

Oh dear.

as I said bad faith...  all my posts are there so read on.

I support peace, there has been none for palestinans since the nakba. I support the right to resist an occupation through all means in line with International law. Peaceful efforts have failed due to Israel and the west. Hamas (the military side) are a resistence group and I support them in line with International law, I don't support any war crimes or act outside of that.

Yes that's all very nice but you described their actions on Oct 7th as 'heroic'. Nice bit of attempted backtracking.

Despite posting that yourself you can't see any blind support for Hamas and accused me of 'bad faith' for even suggesting it.

the Warsaw ghetto uprising was considered the greatest act of resistence against the Nazis.

I am not comparing wars/conflicts as to do so creates ambiguity and there are no perfect direct comparisons.

but acts of resistence (generally speaking) against occupation have and are been considered heroic and great etc.  Only bad faith zionists or those who who rather only support Palestinians while they remain caged and occupied would take that as some sort of blind support for inidividiual acts within that resistence that led to the murdering of non combatants (which includes children women, men, elderly etc.)

You described Hamas actions, that is, gunning down unarmed men, women and children on Oct 7th as 'heroic'. All the waffle above doesn't change that.

Now you're attempting to pigeonhole me as either a bad faith Zionist or someone who only supports Palestinians if they remain caged for calling you out on it. I'm neither.

Lots of bad faith in this debate and none of it coming from me that's for sure.

There were posters here also posting on Oct 7th who were clearly pro-Palestine and were questioning Hamas' actions. You chose the words 'heroic actions.'

[PadraicHenryPearse]

The whole thing doesn't make any sense

Netanyahu was about to get booted out of office and a less hardline Israeli PM was the likely successor

World opinion in general was very sympathetic toward the Palestinians

Relations were being normalized between Israeli and other Muslim countries

Now all of that "progress" has gone up in flames

I asked this yesterday and I'll ask it again- What exactly we're Hamas hoping to accomplish by their actions on 10/07?

Not alone has their country been destroyed and tens of thousands of their civilians killed, but they may very well get Trump elected ....you know Trump, the guy who tried to ban Muslims from entering the US

so you didn't answer my question.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I've not seen anyone giving blind support to Hamas, but in keeping with your bad faith comments.

This is from page 1 Oct 7th - do I need to go through the whole thread? No bad faith here but your eyes are wide shut.

"
Israel are the savages, they learned well from the Nazis. Good luck to Hamas but the response will be brutal, indiscriminate and sponsored by the best weapons the west can buy for them."

Page 2 - 'A desperate people resorting to desperate measures'.

That's directly excusing murder of innocent non combatant civilians.

From your good self - page 4.

'Barbaric is 75 years of occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Barbaric is the silence of western leaders to Israel's actions and their pathetic response to yesterdays HEROIC ACTIONS by Palestinians'.

Oh dear.

as I said bad faith...  all my posts are there so read on.

I support peace, there has been none for palestinans since the nakba. I support the right to resist an occupation through all means in line with International law. Peaceful efforts have failed due to Israel and the west. Hamas (the military side) are a resistence group and I support them in line with International law, I don't support any war crimes or act outside of that.

Yes that's all very nice but you described their actions on Oct 7th as 'heroic'. Nice bit of attempted backtracking.

Despite posting that yourself you can't see any blind support for Hamas and accused me of 'bad faith' for even suggesting it.

the Warsaw ghetto uprising was considered the greatest act of resistence against the Nazis.

I am not comparing wars/conflicts as to do so creates ambiguity and there are no perfect direct comparisons.

but acts of resistence (generally speaking) against occupation have and are been considered heroic and great etc.  Only bad faith zionists or those who who rather only support Palestinians while they remain caged and occupied would take that as some sort of blind support for inidividiual acts within that resistence that led to the murdering of non combatants (which includes children women, men, elderly etc.)

You described Hamas actions, that is, gunning down unarmed men, women and children on Oct 7th as 'heroic'. All the waffle above doesn't change that.

Now you're attempting to pigeonhole me as either a bad faith Zionist or someone who only supports Palestinians if they remain caged for calling you out on it. I'm neither.

Lots of bad faith in this debate and none of it coming from me that's for sure.

There were posters here also posting on Oct 7th who were clearly pro-Palestine and were questioning Hamas' actions. You chose the words 'heroic actions.'

yes bad faith, as I have explained to you what I meant (the person who wrote the comments) and if you read on you will see I clarified it at that time for others also.

I described the act of resistence by Palestinians as heroic, so if I want to think I support murdering children go right ahead it is in perfect keeping with your bad faith.