Author Topic: Man Utd Thread:  (Read 3200135 times)

seafoid

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47460 on: October 07, 2019, 09:58:59 PM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/10/07/manchester-united-big-go-rewind-1974-tommy-docherty-ole/

"Since the end of August, for instance, his team have scored just two Premier League goals. To put that in context, that is the same number as Aaron Cresswell, Jeff Hendrick and Ricardo Pereira individually.
Solskjaer’s gamble on removing the deadwood and hoping the youngsters might step up has left him with a squad who redefine the term 'hollow'.
 

Maybe that is not his fault, maybe it is yet further indictment of the club’s serial incompetence that they have the biggest wage bill in the Premier League, yet do not have sufficient quality in depth to cover a temporary injury crisis. But whatever it is, Solskjaer is in possession of a team less in transition than accident and emergency.
Too big to go down has already started to be heard as an assessment. After all, this is a club with the most substantial cash reserves in world football. Even the Glazers would surely appreciate the need to buy in the cavalry in January. Except, at the moment, United are so inept, so impoverished, so lacking in direction, you could put Lionel Messi in a red shirt and he would pull his hamstring walking out of the tunnel.
The revisionist history of Docherty’s relegation has subsequently recast catastrophe as a necessary purging, one that enabled the rebuild properly to take root. Unless something happens urgently to turn around Solskjaer’s fortunes, we might get another opportunity to examine the accuracy of such analysis. And for those who insist it could never happen, that’s what we all said in 1974."
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Owenmoresider

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47461 on: October 08, 2019, 10:14:27 AM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/10/07/manchester-united-big-go-rewind-1974-tommy-docherty-ole/

"Since the end of August, for instance, his team have scored just two Premier League goals. To put that in context, that is the same number as Aaron Cresswell, Jeff Hendrick and Ricardo Pereira individually.
Solskjaer’s gamble on removing the deadwood and hoping the youngsters might step up has left him with a squad who redefine the term 'hollow'.
 

Maybe that is not his fault, maybe it is yet further indictment of the club’s serial incompetence that they have the biggest wage bill in the Premier League, yet do not have sufficient quality in depth to cover a temporary injury crisis. But whatever it is, Solskjaer is in possession of a team less in transition than accident and emergency.
Too big to go down has already started to be heard as an assessment. After all, this is a club with the most substantial cash reserves in world football. Even the Glazers would surely appreciate the need to buy in the cavalry in January. Except, at the moment, United are so inept, so impoverished, so lacking in direction, you could put Lionel Messi in a red shirt and he would pull his hamstring walking out of the tunnel.
The revisionist history of Docherty’s relegation has subsequently recast catastrophe as a necessary purging, one that enabled the rebuild properly to take root. Unless something happens urgently to turn around Solskjaer’s fortunes, we might get another opportunity to examine the accuracy of such analysis. And for those who insist it could never happen, that’s what we all said in 1974."
Ironic when you're usually so keen to copy and paste full articles that you don't do it for one that's behind a paywall.

trailer

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47462 on: October 08, 2019, 10:38:56 AM »
Replacing OGS is deck chairs on the Titanic. The ship needs to be righted with huge investment. Changing the Manager will make zero difference.

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47463 on: October 08, 2019, 11:34:07 AM »
I think OGS gets a very easy ride from his mates in Sky. Of course you cannot chop change managers willy nilly but there's a very real possibility that Moyes as just one example, is a far superior manager to him. I thought towards end of last season when some of his players were getting flak from his mates in Sky, he said absolutely nothing to defend them and was far too happy to have his belly rubbed by his old team mates in the media.
 Maybe you reap what you sow. When the new manager bounce is gone, when the feel good factor of a change is long stripped away, there has to be something else of substance left. There is nothing in his CV to justify his position. He seems weak to pull up certain pundits when they criticize his players. It is those players who will keep him in the job long term, not his old buddies. I couldn't see Fergie be so quick to play the role of little brother to them. Couldn't see him allow the board start the season without a striker. People talking about giving him hundreds of millions to spend and then see what happens. Personally I wouldn't trust him with the kids lunch money.

GetOverTheBar

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47464 on: October 08, 2019, 11:38:29 AM »
Realistically, who is the ideal United manager.

I've heard everyone from Rodgers to Allegri to Pochetino. Who is the man that can fix this absolute mess? It's becoming increasingly likely that OGS won't last the season...indeed, if Liverpool hand them a beating after the break he'll do well to see Hallowe'en....


Cunny Funt

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47465 on: October 08, 2019, 11:43:14 AM »
Realistically, who is the ideal United manager.

I've heard everyone from Rodgers to Allegri to Pochetino. Who is the man that can fix this absolute mess? It's becoming increasingly likely that OGS won't last the season...indeed, if Liverpool hand them a beating after the break he'll do well to see Hallowe'en....

The million dollar question. not those two IMO.

TabClear

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47466 on: October 08, 2019, 12:51:26 PM »
I think OGS gets a very easy ride from his mates in Sky. Of course you cannot chop change managers willy nilly but there's a very real possibility that Moyes as just one example, is a far superior manager to him. I thought towards end of last season when some of his players were getting flak from his mates in Sky, he said absolutely nothing to defend them and was far too happy to have his belly rubbed by his old team mates in the media.
 Maybe you reap what you sow. When the new manager bounce is gone, when the feel good factor of a change is long stripped away, there has to be something else of substance left. There is nothing in his CV to justify his position. He seems weak to pull up certain pundits when they criticize his players. It is those players who will keep him in the job long term, not his old buddies. I couldn't see Fergie be so quick to play the role of little brother to them. Couldn't see him allow the board start the season without a striker. People talking about giving him hundreds of millions to spend and then see what happens. Personally I wouldn't trust him with the kids lunch money.

to be fair to Ole his three signing in the summer have been three of United's best players so far. Wan Bissake, James and Maguire. The issue with the team at the minute is definitely not driven by those three. The issues are higher up the pitch and he did not address them but you have to question who was available? Klopp was questioned early doors about not buying a new keeper/Cb etc and while it definitely hurt Liverpool short term the benefits of him holding out for  VVD and Allison rather than going for a second choice target has paid dividends in the last couple of seasons.

Off potential summer targets I think the likes of Couthinho and Fernades (sp) would have been good additions but I am struggling to think of a decent striker they could realistically have signed without getting completely screwed on price. Joao Felix at €126m? Dybala? Maxi Gomez?

When they went to Newcastle for Longstaff they were quoted £50m for a 19/20 year old midfielder who had started 13 games! While they might look back in a couple of years and take the view that he or Jaoa felix would have been good purchases (like Rooney) but equally they could have been major flops.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 12:58:02 PM by TabClear »

BennyCake

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47467 on: October 08, 2019, 01:10:22 PM »
The PL has become so international that clubs usually seem to look abroad for players, and not British players. There’s been loads of foreign players who clearly couldn’t adapt to the PL. So buying a foreigner is not always the answer. That’s what Ole has been avoiding, by buying local, proven PL players.

Having said that, the quality is not always available locally. Although that’s a factor of the influx of international players this last 20 years.

seafoid

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47468 on: October 08, 2019, 01:23:51 PM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/10/07/manchester-united-big-go-rewind-1974-tommy-docherty-ole/

"Since the end of August, for instance, his team have scored just two Premier League goals. To put that in context, that is the same number as Aaron Cresswell, Jeff Hendrick and Ricardo Pereira individually.
Solskjaer’s gamble on removing the deadwood and hoping the youngsters might step up has left him with a squad who redefine the term 'hollow'.
 

Maybe that is not his fault, maybe it is yet further indictment of the club’s serial incompetence that they have the biggest wage bill in the Premier League, yet do not have sufficient quality in depth to cover a temporary injury crisis. But whatever it is, Solskjaer is in possession of a team less in transition than accident and emergency.
Too big to go down has already started to be heard as an assessment. After all, this is a club with the most substantial cash reserves in world football. Even the Glazers would surely appreciate the need to buy in the cavalry in January. Except, at the moment, United are so inept, so impoverished, so lacking in direction, you could put Lionel Messi in a red shirt and he would pull his hamstring walking out of the tunnel.
The revisionist history of Docherty’s relegation has subsequently recast catastrophe as a necessary purging, one that enabled the rebuild properly to take root. Unless something happens urgently to turn around Solskjaer’s fortunes, we might get another opportunity to examine the accuracy of such analysis. And for those who insist it could never happen, that’s what we all said in 1974."
Ironic when you're usually so keen to copy and paste full articles that you don't do it for one that's behind a paywall.

Overthought

 
Manchester United too big to go down? Let's rewind to 1974 and Tommy Docherty, Ole
JIM WHITE

Getting worried yet? Ole Gunnar Solskjaer during the match with Newcastle CREDIT: CAMERASPORT VIA GETTY IMAGES
In football, history repeats itself, first as calamity, the second time as comically deluded farce. And for those of us with longer memories than we might wish to make public, what is going on at Old Trafford this season has a horribly familiar feel to it.

In 1974, Manchester United were still floundering following the departure of a footballing knight who had delivered the club years of stability and success. Three men had been tried in the five years since Sir Matt Busby decided to vacate the manager’s office. But Wilf McGuinness, Frank O’Farrell and a brief return by Sir Matt himself had done nothing to stem the slide from contenders to has-beens.

A new boss had been brought in and Tommy Docherty had quickly assessed what was required: the generation who had reached their sell-by date needed to be moved on, along with the inadequate who had failed to fill their sizeable boots. Trusting youth was to be the presiding philosophy, one which neatly tallied with the club’s long-held belief in their own internal regenerative qualities.

But Docherty’s revolution was stuttering. It was all very well extolling the virtues of the future, but the present was withering before our eyes.

Before long, an ominous possibility began to form in the collective mind: this lot were so bad they might actually be relegated. Impossible, was the insistence: Manchester United were too big to go down. It was a belief that held sway almost to the moment they were dispatched to the old second division, helped on their way by their neighbours, gleefully applying a boot to their embarrassed backside.


Which brings us to the United of 2019, sitting two points above the Premier League relegation zone. Just as 45 years ago, there are reasons for the decline that are way beyond the control of the manager. Not only has a great of management not been adequately replaced, but it has become painfully clear since his departure that Sir Alex Ferguson’s genius had for years covered up the huge systemic issues that are the inevitable consequence of ownership more interested in dividends than trophies. Ferguson’s cunning masked a corporate approach to the transfer market that has subsequently been revealed to be about as effective as a blindfolded guest at a seven-year-old’s birthday party attempting to pin the tail on a donkey.

Like Docherty, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer has sought to move on the inadequate and promote from within. But, once again, the record suggests that, never mind the future, the present is sliding towards oblivion.

Since the end of August, for instance, his team have scored just two Premier League goals. To put that in context, that is the same number as Aaron Cresswell, Jeff Hendrick and Ricardo Pereira individually.

Solskjaer’s gamble on removing the deadwood and hoping the youngsters might step up has left him with a squad who redefine the term 'hollow'.


Maybe that is not his fault, maybe it is yet further indictment of the club’s serial incompetence that they have the biggest wage bill in the Premier League, yet do not have sufficient quality in depth to cover a temporary injury crisis. But whatever it is, Solskjaer is in possession of a team less in transition than accident and emergency.

Too big to go down has already started to be heard as an assessment. After all, this is a club with the most substantial cash reserves in world football. Even the Glazers would surely appreciate the need to buy in the cavalry in January. Except, at the moment, United are so inept, so impoverished, so lacking in direction, you could put Lionel Messi in a red shirt and he would pull his hamstring walking out of the tunnel.

The revisionist history of Docherty’s relegation has subsequently recast catastrophe as a necessary purging, one that enabled the rebuild properly to take root. Unless something happens urgently to turn around Solskjaer’s fortunes, we might get another opportunity to examine the accuracy of such analysis. And for those who insist it could never happen, that’s what we all said in 1974.
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Aaron Boone

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47469 on: October 08, 2019, 01:55:09 PM »
United are due a relegation from the top flight, were relegated in 1937 and 1974.

One season in the second division to recharge the batteries.

Denn Forever

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47470 on: October 08, 2019, 02:12:48 PM »
Harder now to get out of Championship.  Hard to pinpoint any current player suited to Championship. Can't see them buying way out.
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means what he says...

Bord na Mona man

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47471 on: October 08, 2019, 02:29:09 PM »
OGS is not the long term solution but it would be harsh to sack him now while some of his best players are out.
What is alarming is the drop in effort from his team once he became permanent manager. They were about to break into the top 4 and cement CL football but then reverted back to relegation form when they were out of that zone of uncertainty.
There aren't players enforcing standards and policing slackers in the dressing room like the old Ferguson teams and this is a problem.

I assume he was told to prioritise binning players stealing a wage to free up funds for future transfers. If he wasn't playing a long game, he would have grabbed any sort of stand in striker in the last window.
About 4 more transfer windows equivalent to the last one are needed, where the right type of players come in.
I suspect the plan was to start quietly lining up a big name replacement for him in the next 12 to 24 months, but the current bout of poor results has put this in jeopardy.

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47472 on: October 08, 2019, 02:52:02 PM »
I think OGS gets a very easy ride from his mates in Sky. Of course you cannot chop change managers willy nilly but there's a very real possibility that Moyes as just one example, is a far superior manager to him. I thought towards end of last season when some of his players were getting flak from his mates in Sky, he said absolutely nothing to defend them and was far too happy to have his belly rubbed by his old team mates in the media.
 Maybe you reap what you sow. When the new manager bounce is gone, when the feel good factor of a change is long stripped away, there has to be something else of substance left. There is nothing in his CV to justify his position. He seems weak to pull up certain pundits when they criticize his players. It is those players who will keep him in the job long term, not his old buddies. I couldn't see Fergie be so quick to play the role of little brother to them. Couldn't see him allow the board start the season without a striker. People talking about giving him hundreds of millions to spend and then see what happens. Personally I wouldn't trust him with the kids lunch money.

to be fair to Ole his three signing in the summer have been three of United's best players so far. Wan Bissake, James and Maguire. The issue with the team at the minute is definitely not driven by those three. The issues are higher up the pitch and he did not address them but you have to question who was available? Klopp was questioned early doors about not buying a new keeper/Cb etc and while it definitely hurt Liverpool short term the benefits of him holding out for  VVD and Allison rather than going for a second choice target has paid dividends in the last couple of seasons.

Off potential summer targets I think the likes of Couthinho and Fernades (sp) would have been good additions but I am struggling to think of a decent striker they could realistically have signed without getting completely screwed on price. Joao Felix at €126m? Dybala? Maxi Gomez?

When they went to Newcastle for Longstaff they were quoted £50m for a 19/20 year old midfielder who had started 13 games! While they might look back in a couple of years and take the view that he or Jaoa felix would have been good purchases (like Rooney) but equally they could have been major flops.

If they hadn't targets lined up then they shouldn't have let players go. Sanchez is the only exception I'd have to that. I think maybe his weakness for flattery from old mates could have burned bridges with a few of the players when things were going a little pear shaped end of last season. His loyalty should be to his players, no one else and he came across a bit pathetic in that regard for my money. Neville and Keane might make some valid points that we can agree with but OGS does not have that luxury, not in public anyway. So I'd question his judgement and yes I'd be wary giving him the lunch money. He's a football man and I'm sure he has an eye for players but that doesn't mean he can manage a big club.
 There's a few cliches doing the rounds at the moment- can't keep changing managers, too big to go down. If a manager is not up to the task you most certainly change him. But Utd are most certainly too big to go down and it will not happen. That's where the changing the manager bit comes into it.

TabClear

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47473 on: October 08, 2019, 03:52:05 PM »
I think OGS gets a very easy ride from his mates in Sky. Of course you cannot chop change managers willy nilly but there's a very real possibility that Moyes as just one example, is a far superior manager to him. I thought towards end of last season when some of his players were getting flak from his mates in Sky, he said absolutely nothing to defend them and was far too happy to have his belly rubbed by his old team mates in the media.
 Maybe you reap what you sow. When the new manager bounce is gone, when the feel good factor of a change is long stripped away, there has to be something else of substance left. There is nothing in his CV to justify his position. He seems weak to pull up certain pundits when they criticize his players. It is those players who will keep him in the job long term, not his old buddies. I couldn't see Fergie be so quick to play the role of little brother to them. Couldn't see him allow the board start the season without a striker. People talking about giving him hundreds of millions to spend and then see what happens. Personally I wouldn't trust him with the kids lunch money.

to be fair to Ole his three signing in the summer have been three of United's best players so far. Wan Bissake, James and Maguire. The issue with the team at the minute is definitely not driven by those three. The issues are higher up the pitch and he did not address them but you have to question who was available? Klopp was questioned early doors about not buying a new keeper/Cb etc and while it definitely hurt Liverpool short term the benefits of him holding out for  VVD and Allison rather than going for a second choice target has paid dividends in the last couple of seasons.

Off potential summer targets I think the likes of Couthinho and Fernades (sp) would have been good additions but I am struggling to think of a decent striker they could realistically have signed without getting completely screwed on price. Joao Felix at €126m? Dybala? Maxi Gomez?

When they went to Newcastle for Longstaff they were quoted £50m for a 19/20 year old midfielder who had started 13 games! While they might look back in a couple of years and take the view that he or Jaoa felix would have been good purchases (like Rooney) but equally they could have been major flops.

If they hadn't targets lined up then they shouldn't have let players go. Sanchez is the only exception I'd have to that. I think maybe his weakness for flattery from old mates could have burned bridges with a few of the players when things were going a little pear shaped end of last season. His loyalty should be to his players, no one else and he came across a bit pathetic in that regard for my money. Neville and Keane might make some valid points that we can agree with but OGS does not have that luxury, not in public anyway. So I'd question his judgement and yes I'd be wary giving him the lunch money. He's a football man and I'm sure he has an eye for players but that doesn't mean he can manage a big club.
 There's a few cliches doing the rounds at the moment- can't keep changing managers, too big to go down. If a manager is not up to the task you most certainly change him. But Utd are most certainly too big to go down and it will not happen. That's where the changing the manager bit comes into it.

I'm certainly not saying Ole is a great manager, I was making the point that his purchases have actually been pretty good.

All this relegation zone crap is just hyberbole. United will finish in the top six, they could push for top 4 depending on how the other teams perform. its only 8 games in FFS.  Whether Ole is the man who gets them there or not could be determined by their next game. A win against Liverpool will buy him a fair bit of time and goodwill, equally an abject defeat at OT could create a fan furore and a knee jerk reaction.

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #47474 on: October 08, 2019, 04:04:45 PM »
Lads, I think some of you are buying into this media hype crap around the team and club.
Most fans were calling out for Sanchez and Lukaku to be out of the club in the summer, they also didnt want them spending another 80/90m on a stop gap when in all reality there is an England striker there backed up by Martial both of whom (on paper) should be good enough to get enough goals to keep the team competitive.

It has been stated on here already, his three signings have all settled and played well thus far, so there is no fault there.

GN has said that there has been no direction since AFS left (if even then) three managers with differing styles requiring different players. So now he has been left with a squad of muddled players with no clear identity. He has started a clear out and a reset and there are going to be results like Sunday all season on and off but short term pain for long term gain.