Man Utd Thread:

[seafoid]

Mourinho was never going to fit into the philosophy of a club like United. Not a fan but I think someone like Poch should be approached.

What is the philosophy now? .
The Glazers have destroyed Man Utd. But Asians buy the jerseys so they don't care

Nothing like some casual xenophobia of an evening eh? And from someone who supports a team outside his native country too lol.

It's not xenophobic.  Fair play to them. Chinese and Vietnamese workers buy Man Utd gear and buy into the mythology just like Irish fans have done for so many years. The Busby Babes. Munich, Fergie Time, knocking liverpool off their f**king perch. Something to talk about in the canteen.

The Glazers play it beautifully. It's a  pity about the football but thats business.

[screenexile]

[brokencrossbar1]

People blaming the Glazers need to take a look at themselves. They appointed Fergusons chosen one to replace him, Van Gaal was was one of the worlds most respected managers when he was appointed and Mourinho was 'the Special One ',  serial winner and a character big enough to deal with the 'magnitude' of the job. They have provided all the managers with enough money for them to assemble the worlds most expensive squad, many pundits were tipping them to win the EPL this year. Commercially the club is going through the roof and Old Trafford is jam packed every game. From the outside looking in I don't see what the Glaxers could do any differently?  Bailey was one of the best defenders in the Spanish league, Miktaryan one of the most productive wide players in the Bundesliga, Pogba one of the top 5-6 players in the world and Zlatsan is, well, Zlatan!!!Memphis Depuy on of the most exciting wingers in Europe, Martial the same for strikers, Luke Shaw one of the most exciting LBs out there. Sweinsteiger, born winner, Schneiderlinn had the season of his life for Southampton. DeGea is purportedly one of the best keeers in the world. Why is it not working and are Glazers easy targets?

[seafoid]

People blaming the Glazers need to take a look at themselves. They appointed Fergusons chosen one to replace him, Van Gaal was was one of the worlds most respected managers when he was appointed and Mourinho was 'the Special One ',  serial winner and a character big enough to deal with the 'magnitude' of the job. They have provided all the managers with enough money for them to assemble the worlds most expensive squad, many pundits were tipping them to win the EPL this year. Commercially the club is going through the roof and Old Trafford is jam packed every game. From the outside looking in I don't see what the Glaxers could do any differently?  Bailey was one of the best defenders in the Spanish league, Miktaryan one of the most productive wide players in the Bundesliga, Pogba one of the top 5-6 players in the world and Zlatsan is, well, Zlatan!!!Memphis Depuy on of the most exciting wingers in Europe, Martial the same for strikers, Luke Shaw one of the most exciting LBs out there. Sweinsteiger, born winner, Schneiderlinn had the season of his life for Southampton. DeGea is purportedly one of the best keeers in the world. Why is it not working and are Glazers easy targets?

From a Galway hurling perspective it doesn't matter how good the individuals are if you can't turn them into a team . Pure usheless. It can go on for years !

And tactics are the other thing.

Nobody in the C suite knows anything about soccer.  Woodward is an Investment banker. They have a big problem adjusting to reality as well in their own business.

Re managers the guys at the top usually have one fantastic idea that overwhelms the competition. Van Gaal did it with Bayern. in 94. Mourinho did it with Porto  and Inter. Inter was 2010.

He didn't do it with Chelsea or Real in the last few years.

Even Pep ran out of ideas at Barca. He failed with Bayern. It's not easy.

The innovators are elsewhere.

Players know when the management is incoherent. Look at Armagh or Meath

Reponsibility rests with the executives.
Man Utd has been on a downward spiral since 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoJR7GbJptg

I was reading about a club that had a great under 12 team that won all the way up to under 21
They won their first all Ireland club. And never looked back. They won stuff with the county
That took a lot of iterations.

The Man Utd interations are crap.
The psychology is probably all messed up

[screenexile]

I think that's a great call bc1... Mourinho/LVG all supposedly top managers given a blank chequebook and signed who they wanted yet Woodward is getting the blame for it all??

[brokencrossbar1]

Seafoid what you say is true but the reality is that what happens in boardrooms has very little or should have very little to do with what happens on the field. The commercial interests of the glazers (which is fully understandable given that they are business men) is being used as a get out clause to hide the real problem. To my mind no manager will succeed in United while Fergie is around the place or his mouth pieces have an outlet through the media. Scholes, Neville, any other ex united player who played under him in the media, will turn Turk once the pot starts boiling and the manager is on a hiding to nothing. The same thing happened in Liverpool after Shanks stepped down and he was asked politely to leave. The same needs to happen in United but it won't. He, and his wee band of self interested minions, are the problem.

[seafoid]

Seafoid what you say is true but the reality is that what happens in boardrooms has very little or should have very little to do with what happens on the field. The commercial interests of the glazers (which is fully understandable given that they are business men) is being used as a get out clause to hide the real problem. To my mind no manager will succeed in United while Fergie is around the place or his mouth pieces have an outlet through the media. Scholes, Neville, any other ex united player who played under him in the media, will turn Turk once the pot starts boiling and the manager is on a hiding to nothing. The same thing happened in Liverpool after Shanks stepped down and he was asked politely to leave. The same needs to happen in United but it won't. He, and his wee band of self interested minions, are the problem.

Maybe. But LVG is not a top manager. Neither is Maureen. Was
I think the dysfunction has very deep roots. I wouldn't let the Glazers off the hook.
The Man City Emiratis  got in Barca people. And that is the Cruyff culture they brought in. And it is very coherent. They planned the Guardiola catch for years. It wasn't mad panic every 2 years.
At Man U nobody is in charge.
This never happens in Kilkenny !

[Walter Cronc]

I'd agree this may be more deep rooted. Is City not now poaching all the top young players in NW England to their academy?

[screenexile]

Seafoid what you say is true but the reality is that what happens in boardrooms has very little or should have very little to do with what happens on the field. The commercial interests of the glazers (which is fully understandable given that they are business men) is being used as a get out clause to hide the real problem. To my mind no manager will succeed in United while Fergie is around the place or his mouth pieces have an outlet through the media. Scholes, Neville, any other ex united player who played under him in the media, will turn Turk once the pot starts boiling and the manager is on a hiding to nothing. The same thing happened in Liverpool after Shanks stepped down and he was asked politely to leave. The same needs to happen in United but it won't. He, and his wee band of self interested minions, are the problem.

Maybe. But LVG is not a top manager. Neither is Maureen. Was
I think the dysfunction has very deep roots. I wouldn't let the Glazers off the hook.
The Man City Emiratis  got in Barca people. And that is the Cruyff culture they brought in. And it is very coherent. They planned the Guardiola catch for years. It wasn't mad panic every 2 years.
At Man U nobody is in charge.
This never happens in Kilkenny !

You're barometer for a top manager is a very high one. Going by your logic there may only be 3 top managers in the world!

Pep, Ancelotti, Simeone... maybe Enrique?

[AZOffaly]

Seafoid what you say is true but the reality is that what happens in boardrooms has very little or should have very little to do with what happens on the field. The commercial interests of the glazers (which is fully understandable given that they are business men) is being used as a get out clause to hide the real problem. To my mind no manager will succeed in United while Fergie is around the place or his mouth pieces have an outlet through the media. Scholes, Neville, any other ex united player who played under him in the media, will turn Turk once the pot starts boiling and the manager is on a hiding to nothing. The same thing happened in Liverpool after Shanks stepped down and he was asked politely to leave. The same needs to happen in United but it won't. He, and his wee band of self interested minions, are the problem.

Maybe. But LVG is not a top manager. Neither is Maureen. Was
I think the dysfunction has very deep roots. I wouldn't let the Glazers off the hook.
The Man City Emiratis  got in Barca people. And that is the Cruyff culture they brought in. And it is very coherent. They planned the Guardiola catch for years. It wasn't mad panic every 2 years.
At Man U nobody is in charge.
This never happens in Kilkenny !

Hang on a wee minute. You are holding up Man City as an example of what Man United should be doing? City have been a basket case plaything for Oil money for years. They shafted relatively successful managers to get the golden boy pinup manager, and I'm not sure that's going to work out for them. They have spent money hand over fist to get the best talent in the world, and I'd love to know what's happening behind the first team in terms of development. Man United have been monetising their business for many, many years and have been spending large amounts to increase their brand name through big money buys or big names in wages and transfers. But to pretend Man City are not doing the same is just mental. If anything City have taken the Chelsea model and taken it to the next level, and the older established money clubs like United are having to react to that. United's brand used to self generate based on success, but now they are being forced to compete for 'names' with huge money, because that's what the other clubs have done via their Oil money. Don't cod yourself about City.

[TabClear]

I'd agree this may be more deep rooted. Is City not now poaching all the top young players in NW England to their academy?

I think that's the issue.  All the big clubs now expect immediate results and the days of the "Liverpool boot room" or "class of 92" at United are gone. Managers aren't getting the time to develop their own team.  Klopp had a easier job at Liverpool in that expectations were lower but it's taken him a year to get the team playing his system. 

That being said I don't think Jose helps himself. In his early Chelsea days he would have done anything to deflect attention from poor performances from his players.  Now he seems to question their committment publicly a la reports from last night's game rather than take the flak himself. Regardless of whether he is right, that didn't end well at Chelsea. It's players merchandise that sells,  not mangers.

[seafoid]

Seafoid what you say is true but the reality is that what happens in boardrooms has very little or should have very little to do with what happens on the field. The commercial interests of the glazers (which is fully understandable given that they are business men) is being used as a get out clause to hide the real problem. To my mind no manager will succeed in United while Fergie is around the place or his mouth pieces have an outlet through the media. Scholes, Neville, any other ex united player who played under him in the media, will turn Turk once the pot starts boiling and the manager is on a hiding to nothing. The same thing happened in Liverpool after Shanks stepped down and he was asked politely to leave. The same needs to happen in United but it won't. He, and his wee band of self interested minions, are the problem.

Maybe. But LVG is not a top manager. Neither is Maureen. Was
I think the dysfunction has very deep roots. I wouldn't let the Glazers off the hook.
The Man City Emiratis  got in Barca people. And that is the Cruyff culture they brought in. And it is very coherent. They planned the Guardiola catch for years. It wasn't mad panic every 2 years.
At Man U nobody is in charge.
This never happens in Kilkenny !

You're barometer for a top manager is a very high one. Going by your logic there may only be 3 top managers in the world!

Pep, Ancelotti, Simeone... maybe Enrique?

Fellas with new ideas. I don't know enough about European soccer but there are managers who have ideas about how to play against predictable teams. Tactics are always evolving. Mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si. It is still all about creating space and using it. 

Even when Man Utd were right at the top they had problems with tiki taka 
I would say Man Utd must be a bit like AIB. Hard to change.

[Bord na Mona man]

Part of the problem is the social media age of today and the overreaction that goes with it. The media both feed it and feed off it which creates an ever decreasing circle.

Mourinho is only 10 league games into the job and there is a huge kerfuffle to brand him a flop. A few weeks ago Conte was supposed to be a failure at Chelsea and Guardiola at City. People may not like Mourinho's ways, but he lifted the title (pulling up) in May 2015 with Chelsea. 18 months later he's a dinosaur and the game has apparently moved on and left him behind. This is further evidence of the appeal to novelty fallacy that goes with the social media age.

Now he isn't even big enough for the job. You'd have to wonder who could possibly meet the criteria at this point.

The Moyes and Van Gaal era saw a lot of ex-Ferguson players and staff pushed out too quickly and somewhere the winning mentality got diluted. Now there is a squad where you have a lot of newish players who aren't sure of themselves, never mind being confident enough to impose a collective winning mentality.

A couple of years of stability and a couple of strategic signings to strengthen the team should see a team ready to challenge for the title again.

[Walter Cronc]

Chelsea have had the best youth system in England this past 10 years or more and Jose had a host of talented young players coming through the ranks - Kennedy/Loftus-Cheek etc but refused to give them a proper opportunity. Jesus it would have been easy to play them sparingly and in 2-3 years have established players.

Maybe United don't have the players coming through, bar Rashford and Mensah but Jose is just not the man to develop a proper culture in the club. I still think Rashford's discovery was as much luck as anything. The boy is a super talent but if it wasn't for injuries he'd probably be still playing U21s.

Had to laugh at Scholes and Owen talking about Luke Shaw being the best LB in the world one day. I'll have whatever they are smoking!!

[seafoid]

Seafoid what you say is true but the reality is that what happens in boardrooms has very little or should have very little to do with what happens on the field. The commercial interests of the glazers (which is fully understandable given that they are business men) is being used as a get out clause to hide the real problem. To my mind no manager will succeed in United while Fergie is around the place or his mouth pieces have an outlet through the media. Scholes, Neville, any other ex united player who played under him in the media, will turn Turk once the pot starts boiling and the manager is on a hiding to nothing. The same thing happened in Liverpool after Shanks stepped down and he was asked politely to leave. The same needs to happen in United but it won't. He, and his wee band of self interested minions, are the problem.

Maybe. But LVG is not a top manager. Neither is Maureen. Was
I think the dysfunction has very deep roots. I wouldn't let the Glazers off the hook.
The Man City Emiratis  got in Barca people. And that is the Cruyff culture they brought in. And it is very coherent. They planned the Guardiola catch for years. It wasn't mad panic every 2 years.
At Man U nobody is in charge.
This never happens in Kilkenny !

Hang on a wee minute. You are holding up Man City as an example of what Man United should be doing? City have been a basket case plaything for Oil money for years. They shafted relatively successful managers to get the golden boy pinup manager, and I'm not sure that's going to work out for them. They have spent money hand over fist to get the best talent in the world, and I'd love to know what's happening behind the first team in terms of development. Man United have been monetising their business for many, many years and have been spending large amounts to increase their brand name through big money buys or big names in wages and transfers. But to pretend Man City are not doing the same is just mental. If anything City have taken the Chelsea model and taken it to the next level, and the older established money clubs like United are having to react to that. United's brand used to self generate based on success, but now they are being forced to compete for 'names' with huge money, because that's what the other clubs have done via their Oil money. Don't cod yourself about City.

There are 2 models . Moneybags and Arsenal. The Glazers were following the Arsenal model at the start.
PSG and Barca and Real are also moneybags

Man City were moneybags but it was coherent. They had a long term plan.
They introduced a different culture. And it was expensive.
Txiki or whatever his name is is ex Barcelona. He would be very popular even now at the Nou camp.
So is Ferran.  And they waited until Pep was available.
It is sort of relentless. They might do it. the CL progression has been very slow. But it is going places.

It's like Emirates Airlines. 30 years ago air travel was dominated by European and Yank Airlines. The Arabs decided to buy the best . And now Emirates is one of the top

By 2014–15, Manchester City had the sixth-highest revenue in the footballing world with an annual revenue of €463.5 million.[3] In 2016, Forbes magazine estimated they were the world's sixth most valuable football club, worth $1.92 billion
Now they are 5th
Man Utd are 3rd

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs#2015_rankings
But Man City have the momentum

Man Utd have wasted the last 5 years. I dunno how much money they spent panic buying. The energy goes all over the place. I wouldn't watch Man Utd but this thread is fascinating . There is a cycle that repeats . New manager. Hope. Just look back to July. Few bad losses in September October. The negativity starts. It gets worse. They buy new players. Hope returns. More bad results. Fans split into hopey and changey.  Manager gets sacked. Backroom staff get sacked. New people come in. Cycle starts again

It happens in GAA too.  Dysfunction. Galway hurling is full of it.  Jarlath Cloonan, Mattie Murphy, Noel Lane, Conor Hayes, Gerlock, McIntyre.  Constant change, players disregarded, nobody knows how to win after a while.  Nothing is built on. It's back to the start again and again. Cork would know it as well.