Sam Maguire permutations

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/04/27/all-ireland-and-tailteann-cup-draws-take-place-next-tuesday-heres-how-theyll-work/

The 14 counties already confirmed for the group stages of the Tailteann Cup are: Antrim, Carlow, Cavan, Fermanagh, Laois, Leitrim, London, Longford, Meath, Tipperary, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow.

The remaining two counties will be known after this weekend's games. Currently, Offaly and Down occupy those spots due to their league seedings, but should either advance to their respective provincial final there would be repercussions further up the food chain.

The most vulnerable sides are Kildare (who finished fifth in Division Two) and Cork (who finished fourth in Division Two).

[armaghniac]

The most vulnerable sides are Kildare (who finished fifth in Division Two) and Cork (who finished fourth in Division Two).

The two great underachievers of Gaelic football.

[seafoid]

The most vulnerable sides are Kildare (who finished fifth in Division Two) and Cork (who finished fourth in Division Two).

The two great underachievers of Gaelic football.

Cork have the same number of all Irelands as Meath. Fair enough, they have lost a lot of finals.
Kildare are like Mayo. They stopped winning a long time ago.

[twohands!!!]

The most vulnerable sides are Kildare (who finished fifth in Division Two) and Cork (who finished fourth in Division Two).

The two great underachievers of Gaelic football.

Given their historic playing numbers Cork are by a distance the greatest underachievers of Gaelic football.

I think you could argue that it might possibly serve them better if they did end up in the Tailteann this year.
Cork have a fair chunk of youngsters from their U20 All-Ireland winning team around their panel who might be better served by winning a string of championship games.
It's very hard to see Cork or Kildare doing anything of significane at Sam Maguire level this year.
I'd say the bookies wouldn't exactly give you great odds on either of them losing all three games in the group stages, which would make it a pretty miserable year for both of them.

Conversely if Down and Offaly end up in the Tailteann Cup they are likely to have a far better championship than if they end up in Sam.
They'd be among the favourites in the Tailteann - both would be short odds to get out of their groups and would fancy their chances of going further in the knock-out stages.
If they end up in Sam chances are the most likely outcome for both would be three losses.

I think after the group stages of Sam you'll see some sides questioning if it is all that much of a reward getting to play at the Sam level as opposed to the Tailteann.
There's a good chance that some side is going to end up in a group where they are out of their depth and end up with 3 damaging losses.

I think it's a bit of a stuctural problem that's not going to go anywhere any time soon - basically every year the highest ranked team in the Tailteann is much more likely to have a better summer than the lowest ranked team in the Sam Maguire (and it's going to be somewhat similar for all the other 4th Seeds in Sam versus the 1st seeds in the Tailteann to a lesser degree as the gap in the rankings grows) I don't really see any way around it. It's possible that maybe if there was a 3 tier championship it would reduce this somewhat (or given their are 3 levels only increase this by a factor of two and just move these stress points elsewhere in the rankings)

[Rossfan]

You do realise that football is ranked lower in importance in most of Cork than the lowest Junior hurling grade?

At present most middle Counties see Sam as the place to be but that might change alright.
3 tiers to be the long term future??

[twohands!!!]

You do realise that football is ranked lower in importance in most of Cork than the lowest Junior hurling grade?

At present most middle Counties see Sam as the place to be but that might change alright.
3 tiers to be the long term future??

There's still a huge swathe of Cork where football is fairly important.

Also in historic terms Cork have had absolutely massive playing numbers compared to every other county.
Only Dublin come close now but that's only a fairly recent development.

[Blowitupref]

Offaly haven't reached Leinster final since 2006 and Down have only the reached the Ulster final once in the last ten years.  Which would the players,management and supporters want more. To reach and play in a provincial final or not reaching it and having extended run Tailteann run?

[seafoid]

You do realise that football is ranked lower in importance in most of Cork than the lowest Junior hurling grade?

At present most middle Counties see Sam as the place to be but that might change alright.
3 tiers to be the long term future??

There's still a huge swathe of Cork where football is fairly important.

Also in historic terms Cork have had absolutely massive playing numbers compared to every other county.
Only Dublin come close now but that's only a fairly recent development.

West Cork is all football

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

You do realise that football is ranked lower in importance in most of Cork than the lowest Junior hurling grade?

At present most middle Counties see Sam as the place to be but that might change alright.
3 tiers to be the long term future??

That is not at all true Ross and I've lived down there for a long time. Mid and West of the county is majority football leaning. Duhallow (north/north west) is football predominantly. Even in the City and East of county, which is hurling leaning there are clubs like Nemo, St Finbarrs, Bishopstown, St Michaels, Aghada, Douglas, Fermoy, Mallow that are huge football clubs.

There's very little support or interest of the county team is one of the issues, whereas the hurlers are well supported usually with a big bandwagon element. When the footballers had a good spell they were well supported too and as recent as 2018 there was 38,000 at a Kerry v Cork game in Pairc ui Chaoimh.

The county board has historically always been run by hurling heads. Some of the appointments of Football managers in the last 10-15 years by the board have been ridiculous. This hasn't helped, but there's still no excuse for a lot of it.

I was discussing this with a Cork man recently and he totted it up. Reckoned there are 30 football only clubs or clubs with very little hurling in the county and another 30 where football was dominant or equal and the club were playing Intermediate football or above. That's a big base. Doesn't take into account Rugby and Soccer which are big draws but still. The problems in Cork football are structural and administrative mainly I think. Nothing to do with lack of numbers or talent.

[grounded]

Offaly haven't reached Leinster final since 2006 and Down have only the reached the Ulster final once in the last ten years.  Which would the players,management and supporters want more. To reach and play in a provincial final or not reaching it and having extended run Tailteann run?

Speaking as a Down supporter, obviously would love to bate them Armagh hallions and get to an Ulster final and also qualify for Sam. You'd obviously have all to play for in an Ulster final and guaranteed at least 3 more highlly competitive  games against higher level opposition.

[seafoid]

The GAA had planned to introduce this system in 2020 but Covid got in the way

[From the Bunker]

This championship is passing me by. Really no interest in it at the moment. The lack of a reward system for winning games other than getting to the Provincial final is a disgrace. Seeding should be done when all the teams qualify for the Round Robin. The round Robin is just going to be a worse version of the Super 8's. There are going to be a plethora of Dead Rubber games.

[Blowitupref]

This championship is passing me by. Really no interest in it at the moment. The lack of a reward system for winning games other than getting to the Provincial final is a disgrace. Seeding should be done when all the teams qualify for the Round Robin. The round Robin is just going to be a worse version of the Super 8's. There are going to be a plethora of Dead Rubber games.

Shouldn't be the case. Super 8s the top two progressed to the final four it was always going to produce dead rubbers.

In this upcoming group stage there should be something to play for in round 3 for every team. Be it topping the table and straight into the last 8 or looking to finish 2nd for a home play off game or even the 4th place team could still be in with a chance of play off game by winning.

[clarshack]

This championship is passing me by. Really no interest in it at the moment. The lack of a reward system for winning games other than getting to the Provincial final is a disgrace. Seeding should be done when all the teams qualify for the Round Robin. The round Robin is just going to be a worse version of the Super 8's. There are going to be a plethora of Dead Rubber games.

Wake me up when it's proper knockout.

[Hound]

There hasn't been any change to the provincial championships! You still get one chance to win it and then you are into the All Ireland series.

Losing in a provincial QF versus losing in a provincial SF never made any material difference in the previous system. One extra game, usually against a weaker team. Often that helped build up some momentum, and shure if you lose an early qualifier, then you were as well out anyway.

The biggest difference is the amount of games on pay-per-view!