Author Topic: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox  (Read 2268 times)

johnnycool

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2021, 09:55:10 AM »
EG is right in so much that the middle ground is where the battle will be won and lost and if we use the surge in Alliance as a marker for that then I think the people who vote for them is more nuanced that thinking they're just disaffected unionists.

For instance Alliance poll quite well in unionist areas like mine in Strangford and the reason for this is that neither SF or the SDLP have a snowballs chance in hell of getting in. So Nationalists like me would be inclined to vote Alliance to at least break the unionist stranglehold for the Assembly and local government.
I'd hazard a guess that the same is very much the case in North Down and East Belfast.

Come a binary UI vote then there might be more "Alliance" voters for a UI than most commentators think but the decision to do so will be based on economic circumstances, health and less so in education where there's probably less disparity.
The economic impact of Brexit has yet to be felt.



yellowcard

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2021, 10:22:08 AM »
EG is right in so much that the middle ground is where the battle will be won and lost and if we use the surge in Alliance as a marker for that then I think the people who vote for them is more nuanced that thinking they're just disaffected unionists.

For instance Alliance poll quite well in unionist areas like mine in Strangford and the reason for this is that neither SF or the SDLP have a snowballs chance in hell of getting in. So Nationalists like me would be inclined to vote Alliance to at least break the unionist stranglehold for the Assembly and local government.
I'd hazard a guess that the same is very much the case in North Down and East Belfast.

Come a binary UI vote then there might be more "Alliance" voters for a UI than most commentators think but the decision to do so will be based on economic circumstances, health and less so in education where there's probably less disparity.
The economic impact of Brexit has yet to be felt.

I don't think anybody disputes that the middle ground is where the poll will be won or lost.

Where I disagree with him is that he seems fairly certain that the British SOS will not trigger a border poll since he believes that this middle 20% will vote to maintain the union. He doesn't know this and neither do we and whilst election results will be some indicator it doesn't tell the whole picture.

There are a whole myriad of outside factors to consider not least what the new state will look like. Other issues like economics, social issues, identity, internal governance will be critical factors and then you have the issue of how it is paid for. We haven't even seen yet how the UK economy will perform post Brexit and were it to begin thriving then it may lower the temperature on any calls for a border poll. I suspect that international and outside support will also be important factors during any border poll campaign whilst there is certainly going to be a timing issue. It is all clearly several years away but I do expect that it will take place before the end of this decade.

The debate is only just beginning and he is already trying to dismiss it as a futile exercise. Then caveats the debate by stating that he would be willing to call the bluff of nationalists in calling the border poll so that he can prove that his assertions are correct which sounds very much like a little bit of false bravado. The condescension of 'wee' Nicola Sturgeon also indicates a dismissive tone for what is a legitimate aspiration for Scottish independence even if I do think that there would be a lot more problems for Scotland post independence than for the north given that they share an island with the other components of the UK.   

Franko

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2021, 10:36:32 AM »
As always, his argument is well put forward - but it is without foundation.

It is based on a few of EG's very childish and simplistic assumptions.  It also includes his absolute favourite anecdote about nationalism and 'the split', which he likes to return to the board and pass off as fresh material, every few months.  A cursory look at the political parties standing for election in the north would quickly lead to a different conclusion in terms of which grouping is more prone to a split.

Anyway, ALL of the items in the list below must be true in order for EG's UI preventing 'Paradox Theory' to hold.

  • All unionists think in exactly the same way - from Andrew Trimble to Jamie Bryson - and EG knows this thinking and therefore can speak for this entire spectrum
  • All nationalists are not true nationalists (some would be open to the status quo remaining) but all unionists are true unionists (and would not countenance another viewpoint whatsoever)
  • In order to bring out their 'traditional vote' in an election, ALL Nationalist parties are required to 'bang the UI drum'.

Remove any of these assumptions, the theory falls over.

Lar Naparka

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2021, 03:45:22 PM »

I  have said on occasion that I like the way EG goes about presenting his arguments. A master craftsman at work. If he were an architect, he could come up with the Taj Mahal- most of the time anyway.
But not on this occasion: this is more the Tower of Pisa than the oriental masterpiece.

For starters, I disagree with what I take to be his central premise.

 ‘For since the GFA, the Constitutional future of NI is solely in the hands of the people of NI and no-one else. Further, it is only a majority who will ever decide, whether to stay within the UK, or join a UI. All else is bluster and flannel.’
There is the matter of the Republic’s consent to be factored in.

I would say that a large majority in the south would back UI- but not at any cost.
If the referendum was to be held right now, the south would  quite probably vote no.
In 7 years time and if  Taigs and Prods could agree to work out their differences like  adults, the south might decide otherwise.
You have the Shinners reverting to type and giving the GFA the stiff finger salute over the burial of Bobby Storey, an avowed paramilitary. All that was missing was the  volley of shots over his coffin.
The Prods, predictably, got their collective knickers in a twist but many down here take a more dispassionate view of what happened. It is bad enough that the Shinners are still spoiling for a fight with the oul’ enemy but the fact that there was a decidedly muted reaction for the moderate nationalist sector hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
It’s okay talking about UI as if it was only a case of sickening ‘themmuns.’
I believe the reaction might very well be ‘ Must try harder. Come back in 7 years time.’
The fact that the DUP backed Brexit and now want to reject what Boris negotiated on their behalf hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
Throw the fact that the dissent on the loyalist side has escalated to the point where there are clashes along the peace lines and EG’s paradox won’t even get a trial run.
'But if Nationalism is to get over the line, it has to muster the bulk of the "Others" (Alliance, Greens, Independents etc) to their cause. Yet if you look at their votes, they are overwhelmingly drawn from Unionist-leaning areas (East Belfast, North Down etc). Therefore in the event of a Referendum, one might expect those of them who did bother to vote, to be Unionist.'
 
One indeed might expect this but it is not a given.
Alot could depend on what type of a united Ireland would be on offer. After all, Boris and the Brits in general aren’t arsed by all the flag waving and declarations of fealty to the Crown.
There is nowt to  suppose that level-headed Unionists would always reject out of hand whatever is on offer.
The tide is going out for ‘A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people.’
It could be argued with as much validity that many Nationalist in the middle ground would probably vote yes if they were happy with what was on offer because the probability is that the Brits will offload them at the earliest possible opportunity. Like moderate Unionists,  they could opt to make the break since the odds are that sooner or later, the likelihood is that there will be a UI of some sort,
For the case EG posits, a lot of ducks would have to waddle in a straight line and they won’t keep doing so indefinitely.
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6th sam

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2021, 08:34:29 PM »

I  have said on occasion that I like the way EG goes about presenting his arguments. A master craftsman at work. If he were an architect, he could come up with the Taj Mahal- most of the time anyway.
But not on this occasion: this is more the Tower of Pisa than the oriental masterpiece.

For starters, I disagree with what I take to be his central premise.

 ‘For since the GFA, the Constitutional future of NI is solely in the hands of the people of NI and no-one else. Further, it is only a majority who will ever decide, whether to stay within the UK, or join a UI. All else is bluster and flannel.’
There is the matter of the Republic’s consent to be factored in.

I would say that a large majority in the south would back UI- but not at any cost.
If the referendum was to be held right now, the south would  quite probably vote no.
In 7 years time and if  Taigs and Prods could agree to work out their differences like  adults, the south might decide otherwise.
You have the Shinners reverting to type and giving the GFA the stiff finger salute over the burial of Bobby Storey, an avowed paramilitary. All that was missing was the  volley of shots over his coffin.
The Prods, predictably, got their collective knickers in a twist but many down here take a more dispassionate view of what happened. It is bad enough that the Shinners are still spoiling for a fight with the oul’ enemy but the fact that there was a decidedly muted reaction for the moderate nationalist sector hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
It’s okay talking about UI as if it was only a case of sickening ‘themmuns.’
I believe the reaction might very well be ‘ Must try harder. Come back in 7 years time.’
The fact that the DUP backed Brexit and now want to reject what Boris negotiated on their behalf hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
Throw the fact that the dissent on the loyalist side has escalated to the point where there are clashes along the peace lines and EG’s paradox won’t even get a trial run.


EG has a view to which he is entitled, and I respect. However I’m finding it impossible to respect your view in bold above . Genuine question , can you explain to me where you get your  “knowledge” of the North? and please try to avoid lazy stereotypes and insults.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 08:36:32 PM by 6th sam »

Lar Naparka

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2021, 10:47:29 PM »

I  have said on occasion that I like the way EG goes about presenting his arguments. A master craftsman at work. If he were an architect, he could come up with the Taj Mahal- most of the time anyway.
But not on this occasion: this is more the Tower of Pisa than the oriental masterpiece.

For starters, I disagree with what I take to be his central premise.

 ‘For since the GFA, the Constitutional future of NI is solely in the hands of the people of NI and no-one else. Further, it is only a majority who will ever decide, whether to stay within the UK, or join a UI. All else is bluster and flannel.’
There is the matter of the Republic’s consent to be factored in.

I would say that a large majority in the south would back UI- but not at any cost.
If the referendum was to be held right now, the south would  quite probably vote no.
In 7 years time and if  Taigs and Prods could agree to work out their differences like  adults, the south might decide otherwise.
You have the Shinners reverting to type and giving the GFA the stiff finger salute over the burial of Bobby Storey, an avowed paramilitary. All that was missing was the  volley of shots over his coffin.
The Prods, predictably, got their collective knickers in a twist but many down here take a more dispassionate view of what happened. It is bad enough that the Shinners are still spoiling for a fight with the oul’ enemy but the fact that there was a decidedly muted reaction for the moderate nationalist sector hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
It’s okay talking about UI as if it was only a case of sickening ‘themmuns.’
I believe the reaction might very well be ‘ Must try harder. Come back in 7 years time.’
The fact that the DUP backed Brexit and now want to reject what Boris negotiated on their behalf hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
Throw the fact that the dissent on the loyalist side has escalated to the point where there are clashes along the peace lines and EG’s paradox won’t even get a trial run.


EG has a view to which he is entitled, and I respect. However I’m finding it impossible to respect your view in bold above . Genuine question , can you explain to me where you get your  “knowledge” of the North? and please try to avoid lazy stereotypes and insults.
It might help if I knew WTF you are on about!
I too respect EG’s point(s) of view. I am on record as saying that he is the best debater I know of and I see no reason to change my opinion of him because of his opening post of this thread.
However, it struck me forcibly that I can’t recall a single norther poster, the great man included  who even considered that the people of the south might like to have a say in shaping the joint future of all on the island.
Why you think I will resort to stereotypes and insults is beyond me. It seems that my use of the pejorative terms, ‘Taig’ and ‘Prod’ upsets your sensibilities and I don’t understand why. Those terms are in common use, in the north at any rate and I’m sure a lot worse terms are being hurled about right now.
the Constitutional future of NI is solely in the hands of the people of NI and no-one else.
I picked on this in EG’s post and you seem to take exception to what I had to say about it.
Why?
I find it extremely offensive that on both sides of the sectarian divide, the feelings of the voters in the south are dismissed out of hand. This uis a topic EG has discussed/debated several (many?) times in the past and he apparently also sees the future of a UI as being a matter for Nationalists and Unionists to sort out between them.
THe fact that 70% of the combined total on this island are southerners and that we will inevitably be forced to dig deep into our pockets doesn't seem worthy of notice either.
Now, if there is anything I have said so far that you feel is factually incorrect, you might care to let me know.
What do you mean when you infer that I know nothing about the north? Anything I have said here can be picked up from current news media reports.
What is there to be known apart from the fact that cross-community strife has broken out once again. No one needs a degree in applied engineering to know that the old hatreds are still alive and vibrant and that if there isn’t some serious effort made to heal or at least tone down sectarian differences, only a fool could expect the people of the south to willingly take all on board where they can continue fighting to their heart’s content.
In short, a little bit of tact could go a long way and a word or two of recognition for the fact that southerners would like to think they have some right to have their op[inions listened to good be a goood idea also.
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Evil Genius

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2021, 11:14:34 PM »
The problem with going by polling is the SF vote in the North has been declining, and much of that is due to conservative Catholics concerned with the liberal agenda, particularly around abortion. But when they need to come out, as they did with ousting Dodds from North Belfast, they really came out. As a result I think a United Ireland vote will be a lot higher than simply adding SF + SDLP together. They will really come out. Can’t say the same for Unionists. They needed to come out in North and South Belfast to retain their seats. They were well beaten in the end by Finucane and Hanna. Those are the trends I would look at.
As we've seen eg with Brexit or the Scottish Referendum, people do not necessarily vote the same way in ordinary elections as they would in a Referendum like this one. There's no tactical voting for a start, nor do personalities or traditional party loyalties enter into it, either.

And even if you insist on taking ordinary elections into account, the total "Nationalist" vote, no matter where it is cast, has plateaued around 42-43% for years now.
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Evil Genius

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2021, 11:21:58 PM »
I do believe that there are a lot more apathetic nationalist voters than there are unionist voters and that is before you begin to factor in any foreign nationals.
Do you have any evidence for that?

As for Foreign Nationals, how many will bother to vote, or even be eligible?

As for those who can, they have chosen to settle in a part of the UK. Do they want the hassle of finding themselves in a third, different country, about which they may not know a great deal?

Besides which, those of them who are in government or public sector jobs (eg NHS) or whose livelihood depends indirectly on same, would surely be more likely to stick with what they have.
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yellowcard

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2021, 11:52:18 PM »
I do believe that there are a lot more apathetic nationalist voters than there are unionist voters and that is before you begin to factor in any foreign nationals.
Do you have any evidence for that?

As for Foreign Nationals, how many will bother to vote, or even be eligible?

As for those who can, they have chosen to settle in a part of the UK. Do they want the hassle of finding themselves in a third, different country, about which they may not know a great deal?

Besides which, those of them who are in government or public sector jobs (eg NHS) or whose livelihood depends indirectly on same, would surely be more likely to stick with what they have.

In relation to the number of apathetic nationalists in comparison to unionists, I don’t have any evidence but I never suggested I had. Similar to your assertion that you’re confident that the ‘middle 20’ would veer towards the union. The reality is that you don’t know any more than I do despite your original assertion. It is not evidence based. However unless the current demographic trend reverses which I can’t see, it is certainly not going to improve in unionisms favour.

The foreign nationals, again I don’t have the answer but in a close contest they will have at least some impact on the result. You would expect them to vote broadly in line with their peers in whatever community they find themselves integrated into.

Since Brexit I would expect fewer EU nationals coming to work in the north and perhaps you are right in relation to some of those people wanting to remain part of the UK. But the reality is that we just don’t know and Brandon Lewis or whoever is SoS doesn’t know either. So whilst you can argue that there is no reasonable basis for him to call the poll, I can counter that argument by saying that there is no basis for him not to call the poll.

However if unionism continues to be led by hard elements of loyalism as we’ve seen in recent days and weeks I’m pretty sure that will not win them any friends both internationally and more importantly with that middle section of non aligned voters.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 11:53:53 PM by yellowcard »

Evil Genius

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2021, 12:01:46 AM »
Crikey, is that you Christopher? Its certainly almost the same arguments Mc Gimpey used back at that talk in the late 90's.

Your argument is well thought out but flawed in the same way Chris's was back 20 odd years ago.   

You can't predict the future. Surely if you have learnt anything from the last 10 years or so is that ANYTHING can happen.

To state the middle ground or for that matter Unionists cannot sway towards a UI is simply untrue. You cannot predict what factors might sway people. e.g. a massive economic downturn in Ni due to Brexit or Scottish independence to name 2 possible scenarios.

That northern Nationalists cannot maximise their votes in probably thee most important vote they will ever take part in is also wrong.
No, I can't predict the future.

But I was talking about the present. And the way things look to me, I don't see there even being a Referendum called, never mind a majority UI vote being achieved.

Meaning that for that to change, someone has to change the dynamic. Unionism does want or need to change it, so it is up to Nationalism.

Specifically, it needs to persuade a section of the Unionist population to cease being Unionists.

And I see nothing in Nationalist politics which is coming remotely close to achieving that. In fact if anything, it is going in the opposite direction, as SF gathers ever more of the Nationalist vote in NI, while making big gains in ROI.

Now you may have a benign view of SF and give them a hearing when they say they want to accommodate Unionists fairly in any future UI etc. But even moderate Unionists think "No way", when they see eg a former IRA bomber, Martina "Brits Out"" Anderson,  being appointed as SF's "Outreach Officer"!  ::)

I mean, how would you take it if eg the DUP nominated Gregory Campbell to "reach out" to Nationalism?

(Rhetorical question, I think I know the answer  ;))

The debate for a United Ireland hasn't even started! 

Rather than enter the debate you've chosen to do what Chris and Unionists have done for a generations. Rubbish and ridicule the idea and bury your head in the sand.

What have Unionists done to encourage Nationalists/Republicans to stay within the Union?

You've took the line that they don't need to bother. Nationalists are quite happy with the status quo... they have too much to lose in a UI scenario... I think that is all up for debate and we haven't even begun that yet.
Where have you been all this time?

The debate over a United Ireland (in the NI context, that is) started with Partition, when the NI state was originally intended to be temporary, and Nationalists looked longingly beyond that.

It continued during the 2nd World War, when the IRA cosied up to the Nazi's in the hope that that nice Mr. Hitler would sort out a UI for them.

It continued during the Border Campaign of 1956-62, when they thought they'd just bomb us into a UI.

And 1966 - that was another good one: the 50th Anniversary of the Rising was sure to be the date.

Then we had The Troubles, when Martin McGuinness assured us all that: "At the end of the day, it will be the cutting edge of the IRA which will win Freedom"

Finally we got to the GFA, or more accurately the St.Andrews Agreement, when SF assured their supporters that their negotiations had left a UI virtually within sight.

In other words, Nationalists have done fcuk-all but talk about/plan for a UI for the last 100 years, the problem being that they've been talking amongst themselves (alone  ;)), with nothing conciliatory or persuasive to say to Unionism.
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Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2021, 12:23:55 AM »


In other words, Nationalists have done fcuk-all but talk about/plan for a UI for the last 100 years, the problem being that they've been talking amongst themselves (alone  ;)), with nothing conciliatory or persuasive to say to Unionism.

People like John Hume and Gerry Adams said plenty in the way of conciliation to unionism over the years. It's hardly their fault if unionists can't hear it.  Latest example: The Claire Byrne show.

Leo varadkar: Any united Ireland will have to respect the British identity of the unionists.

Mary Lou McDonald: Any united Ireland will have to respect the British identity of the unionists.

Micheál Martin: Any united Ireland will have to respect the British identity of the unionists.

Gregory Campbell: "Haha ha! You just don't get it, do you?! We're British!"

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.

yellowcard

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2021, 12:27:57 AM »
Yours is a confidence not often displayed by political unionism and it’s certainly not evident from what we hear from media journalists on the airwaves and in written publications like the Newsletter and Belfast Telegrsph.

All we ever seem to hear is constant negativity and a distillation of fear. Listening to Jim Allister, Jamie Bryson & others ramping up the rhetoric about how the Protocol had placed us in a waiting room for a United Ireland. Even Gregory Campbell stated that he thought a border poll was coming at some point on Claire Byrne live 2 weeks ago.

I’m just interested to know if more moderate voices within unionism like yourself who may get drowned out, are much more comfortable about the prospect of a border poll and their place within the union. If people of your ilk could get their voice heard perhaps your people would be better served rather than seeing every little compromise as some sort of defeat. If that was the case we might not be witnessing the disgraceful scenes we’ve witnessed on the streets over the last week. Unionism does a very poor job at selling everything as a defeat to its own people and as a result appears to be constantly put on the defensive.


6th sam

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2021, 12:31:12 AM »

I  have said on occasion that I like the way EG goes about presenting his arguments. A master craftsman at work. If he were an architect, he could come up with the Taj Mahal- most of the time anyway.
But not on this occasion: this is more the Tower of Pisa than the oriental masterpiece.

For starters, I disagree with what I take to be his central premise.

 ‘For since the GFA, the Constitutional future of NI is solely in the hands of the people of NI and no-one else. Further, it is only a majority who will ever decide, whether to stay within the UK, or join a UI. All else is bluster and flannel.’
There is the matter of the Republic’s consent to be factored in.

I would say that a large majority in the south would back UI- but not at any cost.
If the referendum was to be held right now, the south would  quite probably vote no.
In 7 years time and if  Taigs and Prods could agree to work out their differences like  adults, the south might decide otherwise.
You have the Shinners reverting to type and giving the GFA the stiff finger salute over the burial of Bobby Storey, an avowed paramilitary. All that was missing was the  volley of shots over his coffin.
The Prods, predictably, got their collective knickers in a twist but many down here take a more dispassionate view of what happened. It is bad enough that the Shinners are still spoiling for a fight with the oul’ enemy but the fact that there was a decidedly muted reaction for the moderate nationalist sector hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
It’s okay talking about UI as if it was only a case of sickening ‘themmuns.’
I believe the reaction might very well be ‘ Must try harder. Come back in 7 years time.’
The fact that the DUP backed Brexit and now want to reject what Boris negotiated on their behalf hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
Throw the fact that the dissent on the loyalist side has escalated to the point where there are clashes along the peace lines and EG’s paradox won’t even get a trial run.


EG has a view to which he is entitled, and I respect. However I’m finding it impossible to respect your view in bold above . Genuine question , can you explain to me where you get your  “knowledge” of the North? and please try to avoid lazy stereotypes and insults.
It might help if I knew WTF you are on about!
I too respect EG’s point(s) of view. I am on record as saying that he is the best debater I know of and I see no reason to change my opinion of him because of his opening post of this thread.
However, it struck me forcibly that I can’t recall a single norther poster, the great man included  who even considered that the people of the south might like to have a say in shaping the joint future of all on the island.
Why you think I will resort to stereotypes and insults is beyond me. It seems that my use of the pejorative terms, ‘Taig’ and ‘Prod’ upsets your sensibilities and I don’t understand why. Those terms are in common use, in the north at any rate and I’m sure a lot worse terms are being hurled about right now.
the Constitutional future of NI is solely in the hands of the people of NI and no-one else.
I picked on this in EG’s post and you seem to take exception to what I had to say about it.
Why?
I find it extremely offensive that on both sides of the sectarian divide, the feelings of the voters in the south are dismissed out of hand. This uis a topic EG has discussed/debated several (many?) times in the past and he apparently also sees the future of a UI as being a matter for Nationalists and Unionists to sort out between them.
THe fact that 70% of the combined total on this island are southerners and that we will inevitably be forced to dig deep into our pockets doesn't seem worthy of notice either.
Now, if there is anything I have said so far that you feel is factually incorrect, you might care to let me know.
What do you mean when you infer that I know nothing about the north? Anything I have said here can be picked up from current news media reports.
What is there to be known apart from the fact that cross-community strife has broken out once again. No one needs a degree in applied engineering to know that the old hatreds are still alive and vibrant and that if there isn’t some serious effort made to heal or at least tone down sectarian differences, only a fool could expect the people of the south to willingly take all on board where they can continue fighting to their heart’s content.
In short, a little bit of tact could go a long way and a word or two of recognition for the fact that southerners would like to think they have some right to have their op[inions listened to good be a goood idea also.

Apologies I quoted this bit in bold in error: “ the Constitutional future of NI is solely in the hands of the people of NI and no-one else” , In quoting your original post .  It was actually only the bold bit relating to Prods , taigs that I was alluding to. Hard to get this quoting right🤦🏻‍♂️.
As a Mayo man I would have presumed you would try to understand the underdog a bit better.
The majority of the population of ireland as a whole backed the first Dáil. The result was that 26 counties managed to secure freedom from BritAin. Your freedom was basically attained through republicanism across the 32 counties but “republicans” in the 6 counties were cut loose from the 26 and left to fend for themselves. Some 100 years later you are trying to tell me that we should just continue to suck it up, coz I’m alright jack? And by the way “republicans” in the 6 should also behave “like adults “ and cowtow to unionists , including our first minister who is a solicitor that thinks bus burners aren’t the “real law breakers”. You should be ashamed of yourself as a Mayoman who I suspect is a follower of the self-proclaimed “Republican Party”.

On the subject of “taigs and prods” behaving “like adults” are you aware for example in that in the area I live in  ?~85% “nationalist/republican” there has been power sharing for nearly 50 years with the chair of the council rotating between n/r and unionist. We all work and are friends with people with unionist background . The problem here is that the leadership of the 6 counties remains in the hands of the supremacist DUP who are blocking progress. SF have a history that many find it hard to see beyond (understandably) but it hasn’t helped the situation here when at times SF seem to be the only ones calling out the DUP, and then others present it as a DUP/SF issue.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 08:06:14 AM by 6th sam »

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2021, 12:34:26 AM »
Yours is a confidence not often displayed by political unionism and it’s certainly not evident from what we hear from media journalists on the airwaves and in written publications like the Newsletter and Belfast Telegrsph.

All we ever seem to hear is constant negativity and a distillation of fear. Listening to Jim Allister, Jamie Bryson & others ramping up the rhetoric about how the Protocol had placed us in a waiting room for a United Ireland. Even Gregory Campbell stated that he thought a border poll was coming at some point on Claire Byrne live 2 weeks ago.

I’m just interested to know if more moderate voices within unionism like yourself who may get drowned out, are much more comfortable about the prospect of a border poll and their place within the union. If people of your ilk could get their voice heard perhaps your people would be better served rather than seeing every little compromise as some sort of defeat. If that was the case we might not be witnessing the disgraceful scenes we’ve witnessed on the streets over the last week. Unionism does a very poor job at selling everything as a defeat to its own people and as a result appears to be constantly put on the defensive.

I remember reading the minutes of a Craigavon Borough Council meeting in the 1990s when they were giving off about being forced to open leisure centres on a Sunday. Some gulpin unionist councilor (I think it was Ruth Allen) said "It'll turn our British style Sunday into an Irish style Sunday!* It's another step down the road to a united Ireland!"

* I'm not sure if they even have the same kind of municipal leisure centres in the south, and I'm quite sure municipal leisures centres in Britain were open of a Sunday back then. There are multiple levels on which you could get a good laugh at thon.

6th sam

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Re: A United Ireland - The Nationalist Paradox
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2021, 12:38:37 AM »
Yours is a confidence not often displayed by political unionism and it’s certainly not evident from what we hear from media journalists on the airwaves and in written publications like the Newsletter and Belfast Telegrsph.

All we ever seem to hear is constant negativity and a distillation of fear. Listening to Jim Allister, Jamie Bryson & others ramping up the rhetoric about how the Protocol had placed us in a waiting room for a United Ireland. Even Gregory Campbell stated that he thought a border poll was coming at some point on Claire Byrne live 2 weeks ago.

I’m just interested to know if more moderate voices within unionism like yourself who may get drowned out, are much more comfortable about the prospect of a border poll and their place within the union. If people of your ilk could get their voice heard perhaps your people would be better served rather than seeing every little compromise as some sort of defeat. If that was the case we might not be witnessing the disgraceful scenes we’ve witnessed on the streets over the last week. Unionism does a very poor job at selling everything as a defeat to its own people and as a result appears to be constantly put on the defensive.

A fair summary of unionism don’t you think EG.  unionism has a reasonable argument, but the antagonism, lack of generosity and anti-Irishness of the DUP means that you have few allies and little influence outside your own community.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 12:41:51 AM by 6th sam »