Mother and Baby Home Report

[Main Street]

https://youtu.be/AWpsOqh8q0M

What counts is the public reaction now. Michael D and Joe Duffy  found the right tone. The money involved isn't going to make a huge difference compared to Covid spending.

What is the right tone?    what tone did Michael D hit?
Michael D did not comment on the serious shortcomings and downright lies recorded in the report.

[restorepride]

Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.

Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.

Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.

Agree with all of that, but this couldn't have been facilitated without broader society and in particular the enthusiastic support of the pillars of the community (doctors, teachers and large farmers) who the system benefited.   

As they say, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The people who were strong enough to stand up to the church and stand out from the rest of society have to be admired.  The problem for many was the black and white thinking that was so common. If the right thing was considered the wrong thing by the church, then the good men and women who did the right thing, were considered renegades in the eyes of the unthinking populous. 

I remember a priest in our parish talking once about the challenge of greater levels of education versus faith.  The church really benefited from having many in their congregation that questioned nothing to the point of being soft with respect the church and its doctrine.  People talked about how good the nuns were to take in these "fallen women".

The point I am making here is that Irish society cannot absolve itself of these wrongs. The guilt of the church and state is not in question. But priests and nuns, good and bad, all came from Irish families.  Everyone attended mass, paid their dues and even the disgraceful funeral offerings.  From talking to older people, there was definitely an understanding among people, on a number of levels, that what was going on was wrong and those that sent their daughters to these places had to feel a serious sense of guilt.  There were alternatives and many unmarried mothers were supported by their families.

There was no broader society in narrow Catholic parish life - total control in many rural areas, in particular.  People were indoctrinated from conception to the grave, and beyond.   Including the priests.

[seafoid]

The institutional cruelty meted out to these women and kids  didn't happen in any other European catholic country and it didn't happen on such a scale in any poor country.

I think that it is related to Famine trauma. Israelis demonstrate similar levels of cruelty to Palestinians and it is only 80 years since the Holocaust.

After the Famine sexuality became strictly policed and average age at marriage increased significantly
 In an agricultural society the subdivision of land ended.
There was SFA other wealth
Unexpected children were a threat.

[whitey]

What some of the younger people don’t realize is that the church controlled absolutely everything in the country

A reference for a job

A form for a pension or disability benefit

A reference for boarding school/nursing training

A mortgage

A reference for accommodation

A priests signature was required on many of these documents. If a family crossed a priest the ramifications could be huge for a family or anyone related to them

I know of one person who claims that a priest made representation on behalf of an other individual which resulted in him losing his job in the ESB and someone else getting the job. This would have been in the 60s

[restorepride]

What some of the younger people don’t realize is that the church controlled absolutely everything in the country

A reference for a job

A form for a pension or disability benefit

A reference for boarding school/nursing training

A mortgage

A reference for accommodation

A priests signature was required on many of these documents. If a family crossed a priest the ramifications could be huge for a family or anyone related to them

I know of one person who claims that a priest made representation on behalf of an other individual which resulted in him losing his job in the ESB and someone else getting the job. This would have been in the 60s

100% correct.  "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[restorepride]

The institutional cruelty meted out to these women and kids  didn't happen in any other European catholic country and it didn't happen on such a scale in any poor country.

I think that it is related to Famine trauma. Israelis demonstrate similar levels of cruelty to Palestinians and it is only 80 years since the Holocaust.

After the Famine sexuality became strictly policed and average age at marriage increased significantly
 In an agricultural society the subdivision of land ended.
There was SFA other wealth
Unexpected children were a threat.

The Famine was a watershed - but for Catholicism.  Because of the humanitarian work of the Quakers for example, some communities were too appreciative (to the 'detriment' of the Catholic 'faith') so Archbishop Paul Cullen brought about a new 'devotional revolution' which spread like a 'frenzy' apparently.  Dingle and Tuam get particular mention for the dramatic nature of the sermons.  This drove a renewed devotion which led to the abuse of 'Catholic Church' power - against 'evil'.  This evil was personified in the mothers and babies of the homes, born out of wedlock, so the nuns, in their belief, were simply "ridding the land of evil" hence the cruelty.  The nuns, remember, were also indoctrinated - to think that they were doing the right thing, God's work. 

I don't think that 'unexpected children' were a threat to anyone except the righteousness and 'purity' of the Catholic Church.

Sin é!  I'm away to say a decade of the Rosary!