Author Topic: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity  (Read 1720 times)

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2020, 07:58:09 PM »
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

I was listening to the Irish Indo's Throw-In podcast on the weekend's games.

Michael Verney was effusively praising McLoughlin for hacking down the Galway player, saying it showed his maturity and football intelligence, even though he's a young lad.

That's where we at on this issue.

Its not blatant, unsportsman-like cheating. Its clear thinking under pressure, a sign of a good player, well able for intercounty.

"Sure they're all at it. So what if its cheating? If they don't do it, the other team will"

Since the dawn of day in team sports, players bend the rules as much as they can to win. It's nothing new so I don't know why you seem so surprised.

Any player for all those top teams would have no problem doing what McLaughlin did. It's the nature of competitive football, always has been. Back in the 50s and 60s it might have been a manner of GBH that would have been used to silence a danger man. The issue is not players being unsportsmanlike, it's deterring them from such actions.

Until there are rules that deal with that then it will continue. But I don't want rules to be introduced that give incompetent referees scope to make major incorrect calls that can decide matches.

dublin7

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2020, 10:05:46 PM »
Look let me go over some stuff, cynical play is always dealt with, yellow or red card in hurling, black card in football. If a player is in the 45 and player takes him out, are we now asking for a red card followed by a penalty?

Thatís now in hurling and football?

Some calls are very difficult to call, so when a player use opponents arm to look as if heíd been dragged down, ref not in a better position that the 12 cameras at the game, calls it, player sent off, penalty,  and itís the wrong decision?

And now we are putting in holding hurls in that bracket?

If you'd seen how blatant it was on Saturday, then yes you would. Denied the player a clear goal scoring chance just the same as if he'd rugby tackled him to the ground.

Basketball, Soccer, rugby have rules for clear and cynical foul play. Even baseball which is almost a non contact sport has rules as well for cynical foul play.

I watched all the games at the weekend, I didnít come away thinking that we need to start giving penalties and red cards from the 45 yard line as it might, might be a goal opportunity.

Youíll be giving red card for pulling jerseys next, as hold a hurl is no different

I didn't see anyone get a clear goal scoring chance from the 45 yard line in any of the games either. I did see a Galway player taken out on the edge of the area in the going in on goal in the football and a Galway hurling player being denied a clear goal scoring chance just outside the area as well with a cynical foul.

Why shouldn't a player receive a red card for deliberately stopping someone scoring a goal? This would only apply to clear goal scoring opportunities. Fouls on the half way line or 45m line wouldn't be deemed clear goaling chances so that's irrelevant to this rule.

The point of red cards or black cards for cynical play is to discourage cynical play and help the attacking player. This rule would lead to more goals so and less foul play during games. Surely that's a good thing for the sport.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2020, 10:47:54 PM »
But the cries will come out, he was clean through ref, two attackers on one defender,  that was a cert goal!
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2020, 01:50:28 AM »
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

I was listening to the Irish Indo's Throw-In podcast on the weekend's games.

Michael Verney was effusively praising McLoughlin for hacking down the Galway player, saying it showed his maturity and football intelligence, even though he's a young lad.

That's where we at on this issue.

Its not blatant, unsportsman-like cheating. Its clear thinking under pressure, a sign of a good player, well able for intercounty.

"Sure they're all at it. So what if its cheating? If they don't do it, the other team will"

Since the dawn of day in team sports, players bend the rules as much as they can to win. It's nothing new so I don't know why you seem so surprised.

Any player for all those top teams would have no problem doing what McLaughlin did. It's the nature of competitive football, always has been. Back in the 50s and 60s it might have been a manner of GBH that would have been used to silence a danger man. The issue is not players being unsportsmanlike, it's deterring them from such actions.

Until there are rules that deal with that then it will continue. But I don't want rules to be introduced that give incompetent referees scope to make major incorrect calls that can decide matches.

Iíve not expressed ANY surprise that players do it.

Why wouldnít they, given the extremely lenient punishment theyíre subjected to and the attitudes of those in the sport such as Verney and many on this board, who see it as something a player should be expected to do and apparently ok from the perspective of sportsmanship.

I agree with you that itís the rules that are the problem, but theyíre not going to be changed if nobody gives a f**k (again, I do NOT share your reluctance based on the refs). Maybe it WILL take a team like Dublin losing an AI final due to such a foul before the GAA community comes to its senses.

Galway havenít said a word, when they should be all over this. But they know that in the real world Pauric Joyce would be told to f**k away off and stop complaining and worry more about the mistakes they made. And so they just have to take it, just like the next team will, until Dublin or Kerry get screwed and someone in the media decides to take up the mantle.

If it happens to us, I hope Declan Bonner creates holy hell.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 01:52:20 AM by J70 »

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2020, 07:46:38 AM »
So Dublin Donegal final, Donegal two points up dying seconds, Dublin player clean through on goal, Donegal defender takes one for the All Ireland title and is black carded Dublin take the point and Donegal win the title.

So from your stand point, ethics and sportsmanship youíll not celebrate it, as its completely tainted, in fact youíll want to give a penalty and red card  and lose the title.

Morally itís right, the honesty is to be admired of a player that allows an attacker to run through without a last ditched attempt to bring him down.

Fair play J70
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

johnnycool

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2020, 09:21:16 AM »
What if we make the area where a penalty can be awarded bigger?

Instead of only out to the 13 metre line, move it out to the 20 metre line and maybe wider than the current 19 metres..

Not any more difficult for referees to officiate and giving cynical type defending a bigger area where a transgression is suitably punished.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2020, 09:24:12 AM »
What if we make the area where a penalty can be awarded bigger?

Instead of only out to the 13 metre line, move it out to the 20 metre line and maybe wider than the current 19 metres..

Not any more difficult for referees to officiate and giving cynical type defending a bigger area where a transgression is suitably punished.

Thatís an easier way of doing it Johnny!!
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

five points

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2020, 11:03:59 AM »
What if we make the area where a penalty can be awarded bigger?

Instead of only out to the 13 metre line, move it out to the 20 metre line and maybe wider than the current 19 metres..

Not any more difficult for referees to officiate and giving cynical type defending a bigger area where a transgression is suitably punished.

Thatís an easier way of doing it Johnny!!

Except any sort of niggly tussle - maybe not even an actual foul - within the 20 metre line would then earn a penalty.

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2020, 11:11:51 AM »
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

I was listening to the Irish Indo's Throw-In podcast on the weekend's games.

Michael Verney was effusively praising McLoughlin for hacking down the Galway player, saying it showed his maturity and football intelligence, even though he's a young lad.

That's where we at on this issue.

Its not blatant, unsportsman-like cheating. Its clear thinking under pressure, a sign of a good player, well able for intercounty.

"Sure they're all at it. So what if its cheating? If they don't do it, the other team will"

Since the dawn of day in team sports, players bend the rules as much as they can to win. It's nothing new so I don't know why you seem so surprised.

Any player for all those top teams would have no problem doing what McLaughlin did. It's the nature of competitive football, always has been. Back in the 50s and 60s it might have been a manner of GBH that would have been used to silence a danger man. The issue is not players being unsportsmanlike, it's deterring them from such actions.

Until there are rules that deal with that then it will continue. But I don't want rules to be introduced that give incompetent referees scope to make major incorrect calls that can decide matches.

Iíve not expressed ANY surprise that players do it.

Why wouldnít they, given the extremely lenient punishment theyíre subjected to and the attitudes of those in the sport such as Verney and many on this board, who see it as something a player should be expected to do and apparently ok from the perspective of sportsmanship.

I agree with you that itís the rules that are the problem, but theyíre not going to be changed if nobody gives a f**k (again, I do NOT share your reluctance based on the refs). Maybe it WILL take a team like Dublin losing an AI final due to such a foul before the GAA community comes to its senses.

Galway havenít said a word, when they should be all over this. But they know that in the real world Pauric Joyce would be told to f**k away off and stop complaining and worry more about the mistakes they made. And so they just have to take it, just like the next team will, until Dublin or Kerry get screwed and someone in the media decides to take up the mantle.

If it happens to us, I hope Declan Bonner creates holy hell.

The reason Galway haven't said anything is that it would be hypocritical of them to do so. Had it been Galway closing the game out in injury time you can be guaranteed they'd be doing the same and Joyce would likely be accused of sour grapes when the reality was Mayo were the better team on the day. The rules are the rules and the rules were followed in the situation that unfurled.

Cynicism exists, always has, always will and teams are very good at finding new ways to bend the rules, it's the competitive nature of sport.

All teams know the way it is and how you close out games. If someone is bearing down on goal then you get them out by any means before they reach the box. We have a new rule introduced this year on cynical fouling, the sin bin is more punitive than the previous replacement option of the black card. I think it has worked well but the one area it falls down in has to be the closing stages of games where teams aren't going to be without a man for the full 10 minutes.

BennyCake

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2020, 11:23:53 AM »
One thing Iíll add about the Mayo foul, why didnít Galway go for a goal from the resulting free?  There was probably less than a minute to go and there was no way theyíd get another chance for a score. Yes there was 44 players on the line, but go for it anyway. Same with COC in the 2013 AI final, have a bloody go!

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2020, 11:48:36 AM »
So Dublin Donegal final, Donegal two points up dying seconds, Dublin player clean through on goal, Donegal defender takes one for the All Ireland title and is black carded Dublin take the point and Donegal win the title.

So from your stand point, ethics and sportsmanship youíll not celebrate it, as its completely tainted, in fact youíll want to give a penalty and red card  and lose the title.

Morally itís right, the honesty is to be admired of a player that allows an attacker to run through without a last ditched attempt to bring him down.

Fair play J70

Thatís my whole point.

Donegal would celebrate, the player would be seen to have done what he had to, after all ďitís within  the rules!Ē, and Dublin would just have to take it, fair play be damned.

Itís a laughable state of affairs.

However, if it did happen as you lay out, maybe then something would actually be done about it.