Author Topic: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity  (Read 1660 times)

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2020, 07:51:41 PM »
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

So let’s just beat them with a stick for the remaining five minutes for being cynical Cnuts!

If your team was winning by 2 points with a couple of minutes to go, you’ll be happy the player running through on your teams goal wasn’t taken out?

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Players will do what it takes but the rules just deter cynicism, not reward it.


Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2020, 07:54:03 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

dublin7

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2020, 08:04:01 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

A red card for a clear and obvious denial of a goal scoring chance is what alot of people are suggesting. That by its nature is going to be clear to the referee. If a player commits a foul and gets sent off that's his fault not the refs.

Arguments that the ref sending off a player would ruin the game like the All Ireland should be ignored full stop. If a player commits a serious foul then what day the game is on is irrelevant. Former Kilkenny players in the media trying to use All Ireland final day as a reason Richie Hogan shouldn't have been sent off last year were an insult to the referee and the rules of the game.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2020, 08:08:46 PM »
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

So let’s just beat them with a stick for the remaining five minutes for being cynical Cnuts!

If your team was winning by 2 points with a couple of minutes to go, you’ll be happy the player running through on your teams goal wasn’t taken out?

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Players will do what it takes but the rules just deter cynicism, not reward it.

Is that a no?

So you’re not associated with a team/played or managed a team ?

Otherwise just answer it, stop with the stupid don’t hate the player shit!

Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2020, 08:13:28 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

A red card for a clear and obvious denial of a goal scoring chance is what alot of people are suggesting. That by its nature is going to be clear to the referee. If a player commits a foul and gets sent off that's his fault not the refs.

Arguments that the ref sending off a player would ruin the game like the All Ireland should be ignored full stop. If a player commits a serious foul then what day the game is on is irrelevant. Former Kilkenny players in the media trying to use All Ireland final day as a reason Richie Hogan shouldn't have been sent off last year were an insult to the referee and the rules of the game.

We've seen plenty of extremely controversial black cards since its introduction.

Upgrading black card offences to red card just compounds matters.

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2020, 08:15:52 PM »

Is that a no?

So you’re not associated with a team/played or managed a team ?

Otherwise just answer it, stop with the stupid don’t hate the player shit!

It's not stupid.

Players will naturally take advantage of rules that reward cynicism. It's what has happened, it is what will happen in future.

What needs to be done is a proper deterrent brought it that punishes what we saw at the end of the Connacht final. All 30 players on the pitch would likely have done the exact same thing, the problem is the rules though. It's pretty clearcut for me, if you don't agree then that's your prerogative.

dublin7

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2020, 08:22:05 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

A red card for a clear and obvious denial of a goal scoring chance is what alot of people are suggesting. That by its nature is going to be clear to the referee. If a player commits a foul and gets sent off that's his fault not the refs.

Arguments that the ref sending off a player would ruin the game like the All Ireland should be ignored full stop. If a player commits a serious foul then what day the game is on is irrelevant. Former Kilkenny players in the media trying to use All Ireland final day as a reason Richie Hogan shouldn't have been sent off last year were an insult to the referee and the rules of the game.

We've seen plenty of extremely controversial black cards since its introduction.

Upgrading black card offences to red card just compounds matters.

Black cards are given for a multitude of reasons and can be difficult to judge. That's one of the reasons they changed the rules to 10 min in the sin bin. Very hard to for a referee to get wrong a clear and obvious foul when a player is bearing down on goal. There's not a referee in the country wouldn't have seen a foul like the one on Sunday as a clear and obvious foul to deny a goal scoring chance.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2020, 08:29:39 PM »



There’s enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2020, 09:07:26 PM »



There’s enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

So the issue is the workload of the refs?

Not fair play and sportsmanship in the game?

How would this add to the ref's work anyway? Its just a different penalty. He or she still has to call the foul even if nothing changes.

On Sunday, the ref would have given McLoughlin a red card and Galway a penalty instead of giving McLoughlin a black card and Galway a free.

Same amount of work, vast difference in terms of justice.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2020, 09:24:50 PM »



There’s enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

So the issue is the workload of the refs?

Not fair play and sportsmanship in the game?

How would this add to the ref's work anyway? Its just a different penalty. He or she still has to call the foul even if nothing changes.

On Sunday, the ref would have given McLoughlin a red card and Galway a penalty instead of giving McLoughlin a black card and Galway a free.

Same amount of work, vast difference in terms of justice.

The refs role has changed dramatically since I took up the whistle.

My beef is with the constant changing of the rules and changing the game, it just hasn’t improved it in any shape or form.

What have you noticed has changed?

Are we going to sanitise to the point of non contact?
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2020, 09:44:26 PM »



There’s enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

So the issue is the workload of the refs?

Not fair play and sportsmanship in the game?

How would this add to the ref's work anyway? Its just a different penalty. He or she still has to call the foul even if nothing changes.

On Sunday, the ref would have given McLoughlin a red card and Galway a penalty instead of giving McLoughlin a black card and Galway a free.

Same amount of work, vast difference in terms of justice.

The refs role has changed dramatically since I took up the whistle.

My beef is with the constant changing of the rules and changing the game, it just hasn’t improved it in any shape or form.

What have you noticed has changed?

Are we going to sanitise to the point of non contact?

I'm arguing a very specific point about making the punishment fit the crime when someone is pulled down deliberately to prevent a goal chance.

If you want to have a wider debate about "sanitising" the game in terms of contact, or indeed wider experimenting with the rules, that's a different argument and I'm not your man.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2020, 10:04:15 PM »
And I’m saying stop changing the rules every time a foul is highlighted.

Some refs call bet the weekend couldn’t even apply simple rules correctly ;D
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Ball Hopper

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2020, 10:34:40 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

There's no punishment for what McLaughlin did too.

Would he have done it if he knew he'd miss an All Ireland semi final do you think?

Maybe, maybe not.

If he didn't do it, there's a fair chance they'd have lost the game.

A red card for him should mean missing the All-Ireland semi-final, but at least his team would be there.

He did it because "I loves me County", even if it cost his own appearance in the semi-final (or final if in a later game).

What would the appropriate sanction for doing it in the All-Ireland final, preserving the win?  Miss 3 league games, or next two provincial games?  Take that punishment gladly and party on in Castlebar or Omagh or Killarney or wherever with Sam for the winter, with the aggressor now a hero.

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2020, 10:40:57 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

There's no punishment for what McLaughlin did too.

Would he have done it if he knew he'd miss an All Ireland semi final do you think?

Maybe, maybe not.

If he didn't do it, there's a fair chance they'd have lost the game.

A red card for him should mean missing the All-Ireland semi-final, but at least his team would be there.

He did it because "I loves me County", even if it cost his own appearance in the semi-final (or final if in a later game).

What would the appropriate sanction for doing it in the All-Ireland final, preserving the win?  Miss 3 league games, or next two provincial games?  Take that punishment gladly and party on in Castlebar or Omagh or Killarney or wherever with Sam for the winter, with the aggressor now a hero.

That's why you need the penalty award.

Jell 0 Biafra

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2020, 04:18:04 AM »
For certain infringements,  basketball has a free throw and subsequent possession awarded to the fouled team. An equivalent of this would be a great disincentive against the foul in the opponent's half once the ball has been turned over.

Agree with J70 that an automatic penalty for something like we saw at the weekend is warranted.   Soccer has, or used to have, something like this, didn't it?  It wasn't unmanageabley difficult to oversee, was it?