Author Topic: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity  (Read 1714 times)

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2020, 05:36:51 PM »
No chance. There’s more than enough rules in the game. Plus would you really trust refs with making that call?

Clearly there aren't enough rules when a team doesn't give two fucks about sacrificing a player to save a shot on goal.

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2020, 05:43:02 PM »
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

Armagh18

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2020, 05:46:56 PM »
No chance. There’s more than enough rules in the game. Plus would you really trust refs with making that call?

Clearly there aren't enough rules when a team doesn't give two fucks about sacrificing a player to save a shot on goal.
Sure what odds, thats football. It’s not as though one team is gonna do it and the other team wont if given the same chance.

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2020, 05:54:17 PM »
Straight red and a penalty.

It would soon stop then.

Black card when a point or two up with a few minutes left is about the equivalent of a gentle slap on the wrist.

Fair punishment but would you trust referees to enforce it correctly? A red card and penalty are huge match turning events, I'd have serious concerns about referees judgement to get massive game changing decisions right.

For me there should be a different punishment in the last 10 minutes of the game compared to the first 60. With a sin bin players is generally not going to make that foul in a tight game before the 60th minute leaving his team down a man for a considerable amount of the game.

Down should have buried the game against Cavan when Reilly was in the sinbin, Mooney had a glorious goal chance that I think would have put Down 13 points up coming close to HT.

There are lots of things that are huge match-turning events. Sometimes refs get them wrong. There's no avoiding that. They get only one real-time, varying-quality, look at something after all.

However, hacking down someone who is clean through on goal instead of trying to fairly tackle them, knowing that you'll only "suffer" the penalty of a black card, is also a match-turning event. Yes, with the red card/penalty punishment you'll have a team now and again feeling hard done by, but at least that would be through an honest refereeing mistake. As things stand you have teams feeling hard done by  due to unsporting cynicism, basically cheating, being indulged, even encouraged, by the rules of the sport itself.

But in the current rule I don't think many players would do what McLaughlin did in the first 60 minutes of a game with 2 points between the teams.

It only becomes a factor in the last 5 or 6 minutes of a game.

What happen when a player is through on goal has a defender behind him who is trying to tackle him and ends up putting his hand in to win the ball, the forward then pulls the defenders hand in, falls over and drags the defender with him.

The ref could end up sending a player off, awarding a penalty and have a team play the rest of the match for 14 men and its so easy to get wrong, particularly when referees are not of a good standard.

McLaughlin does not make that foul before the 60th minute. It does not pay to make that foul before then.

I get all of that, and those are details which would obviously have to be discussed and debated, although I'm not that concerned about forwards trying to pull someone down on themselves. Its happens now and again, but I seriously doubt any forward clean through on goal is going to instead stop and try to stage a foul instead of going for glory.

My biggest concern is that we have big games coming up over the next month, and you can absolutely guarantee that if its tight, and a player does get free ahead of the defense, he is going to be unceremoniously taken out. There is no chance he gets through for a shot if anyone can get near him.

That cannot be allowed to stand in our game.

On the forward dragging someone down, there is motivation there, not only would his team have a penalty which could actually be a better chance than the goal opening in the first place - it also would have the opposition a man down for the rest of the mach. He doesn't neccesarily have to stop, all he has to do is make use of a defender attempting a tackle. Forwards pulling players down to get he foul is so commonplace now, you see it on multiple occasions in every match across the country. Some referees spot it, others are duped by it.

The current punishment for those fouls is 10 minutes in the sin bin and a free. The likely result is a point for the opposition and a man advantage for 10 minutes. I think that is probably punishment enough when the foul is committed in the body of the game because a man advantage could be worth more than the 2 pt difference the foul has yielded.

If it was me I'd be raging at a player picking up a black card in the first 60 minutes of a game. I think you can see it in matches. How many black cards have we seen this Championship for those type of cynical fouls in the first 60 minutes of matches? I can't recall any, the only ones that have occured have been for silly fouls that I'm sure management teams would be raging about. I can guarantee you Langan and Canavan would have been dragged down for their goals if they were happening in the last 5-10 minutes of matches in Ballybofey without question but the punishment of being down a man for 10 minutes was too big a deterrent at the time the goal was scored for anyone to do it.

So we currently have a deterrent for the first 60 minutes of games. I think this should then change for the last 10 with an automatic penalty (along with a black card) if the foul is inside the 45 and if its outside the 45 then maybe bringing the ball 30 yards further up for the free and further if the opposition keep trying to delay the taking.


Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2020, 05:56:25 PM »
No chance. There’s more than enough rules in the game. Plus would you really trust refs with making that call?

Clearly there aren't enough rules when a team doesn't give two fucks about sacrificing a player to save a shot on goal.
Sure what odds, thats football. It’s not as though one team is gonna do it and the other team wont if given the same chance.

That's not the point though, is it?

Any team could obviously do it given the ridiculously lax consequences for doing so. Those consequences are the point.

It could be Neil McGee pulling down Con O'Callaghan in a few weeks if we beat Cavan next week. Just because Donegal might get through on the back of it wouldn't make it right. As a Donegal supporter it would take a lot of the shine off it.

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2020, 05:59:17 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

There's no punishment for what McLaughlin did too.

Would he have done it if he knew he'd miss an All Ireland semi final do you think?

Maybe, maybe not.


J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2020, 06:01:12 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

imtommygunn

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2020, 06:13:08 PM »
There was a bad one in Galway Kilkenny Saturday night. Same rules should really be in hurling too.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2020, 06:38:43 PM »
There was a bad one in Galway Kilkenny Saturday night. Same rules should really be in hurling too.

Nobody complained or started a thread in it. They moved on
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dublin7

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2020, 06:42:06 PM »
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

Angelo

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2020, 06:45:03 PM »
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

trileacman

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2020, 07:07:56 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.
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Milltown Row2

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2020, 07:22:27 PM »
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

So let’s just beat them with a stick for the remaining five minutes for being cynical Cnuts!

If your team was winning by 2 points with a couple of minutes to go, you’ll be happy the player running through on your teams goal wasn’t taken out?
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

J70

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Re: Penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2020, 07:31:04 PM »
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged ‘clean through’ who’d probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.