Author Topic: Conspiracy Theories  (Read 5246 times)

PadraicHenryPearse

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2020, 12:11:23 PM »
is the wearing of a mask not similar to wearing a gum shield or a seatbelt etc. maybe seatbelt is a better example as it protects you and others in the car. most of the time its not needed, however It reduces the risk of more serious injury if required. why are they not conspiracies?

sid waddell

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2020, 12:15:09 PM »
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.

There’s a lot of ground between government misinformation and Pizzagate, chemtrails and vaccinations with 5G-activated tracking chips.
Indeed - put that question on a broader horizon and ask why should you trust say anyone or anything?
The whole point of the worldwide right-wing propaganda and disinformation war is to get people to believe in nothing, and to become completely cynical, yet gullible

If you believe in nothing, you lose all belief in the power of politics to effect any positive change in society

Life and society then becomes an eternal game of confusion, fear, imagined eternal threats and imagined moral panics

In this environment, no positive change is possible, only a retreat into an imagined past, a fantasy world, in which a dictator imposes "order"

The Russians are the masters of it

This short film by Adam Curtis from 2014 is instructive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od4MWs7qTr8

Fionntamhnach

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2020, 12:20:29 PM »
That’s where credibility and expertise comes into it.

Indeed. I'd prefer to pay more attention about oral hygiene from a dentist rather than someone who uses a piece of string and a door handle, at the risk of being one of the "sheeple".
"I can't be arsed any more; too much ignorance, bigotry, dogma, idiocy & retreat from reason"

Baile Brigín 2

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2020, 12:30:36 PM »
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

brokencrossbar1

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2020, 12:49:48 PM »
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Would agree fully in that. The amount of ‘experts’ on the likes of Twitter is unreal. Recently there was a debate about the content of the GFA and some little Wannabe Englander was giving it loads about a political researcher and her knowledge of the GFA. She actually wrote one of the most comprehensive analysis is the document, your man had read something akin to the Executive Summary. He was insistent that she knew nothing about it and that he understood it better.

The internet fortunately has provided a sounding forum for all opinions, the internet unfortunately has provided a sounding forum for all opinions.

five points

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2020, 12:54:20 PM »
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

J70

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2020, 01:05:09 PM »
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

The Republican-led US Senate doesn't think so. Plenty of examples outlined in their report on the last presidential election.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf

Despite Moscow's denials, the direction and financial involvement of Russian oligarch Yevgeniy Prigozhin, as well as his close ties to high-level Russian government officials including President Vladimir Putin, point to significant Kremlin support, authorization, and direction of the IRA' s operations and goals.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 01:07:22 PM by J70 »

five points

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2020, 01:26:00 PM »
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

The Republican-led US Senate doesn't think so. Plenty of examples outlined in their report on the last presidential election.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf

Despite Moscow's denials, the direction and financial involvement of Russian oligarch Yevgeniy Prigozhin, as well as his close ties to high-level Russian government officials including President Vladimir Putin, point to significant Kremlin support, authorization, and direction of the IRA' s operations and goals.

I'm not asking what they think. I'd be interested in hearing what you think. It stretches credibility that a troubled and declining country like Russia is manipulating like a puppet-master, elections and domestic political affairs in America and Britain. (I'd frankly be more worried about the Chinese.)


J70

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2020, 01:33:41 PM »
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

The Republican-led US Senate doesn't think so. Plenty of examples outlined in their report on the last presidential election.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf

Despite Moscow's denials, the direction and financial involvement of Russian oligarch Yevgeniy Prigozhin, as well as his close ties to high-level Russian government officials including President Vladimir Putin, point to significant Kremlin support, authorization, and direction of the IRA' s operations and goals.

I'm not asking what they think. I'd be interested in hearing what you think. It stretches credibility that a troubled and declining country like Russia is manipulating like a puppet-master, elections and domestic political affairs in America and Britain. (I'd frankly be more worried about the Chinese.)

It doesn't really matter what I think on this. I'm a nobody on the internet with no insight whatsoever beyond my limited knowledge of analysis put out by bodies such as intelligence agencies and investigative journalists.

But, I don't personally see anything credibility-stretching in the concept of Putin and Russia trying to sow discord in the US and Britain/EU, if it will sway or weaken the influence of those countries internationally.

Of course the same goes for the Chinese, as you say.

five points

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2020, 01:39:25 PM »

But, I don't personally see anything credibility-stretching in the concept of Putin and Russia trying to sow discord in the US and Britain/EU, if it will sway or weaken the influence of those countries internationally.


To what ends though?

The Chinese are awash with money and cutting-edge tech. Russia isn't. It's a dysfunctional and backward kip with a national fondness for corruption and dodgy leadership.

93-DY-SAM

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2020, 01:40:20 PM »
Good read:

https://medium.com/discourse/the-dunning-kruger-effect-explains-why-society-is-so-screwed-up-1432aca90aa8

"The Dunning-Kruger Effect is the tendency for people to misjudge their abilities. People with less than average abilities tend to overestimate their true abilities, while those with higher than average abilities tend to not realize how much better they are. That is, some people are too stupid to know how stupid they are, while smart people assume most can do what they can."

J70

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2020, 01:50:37 PM »

But, I don't personally see anything credibility-stretching in the concept of Putin and Russia trying to sow discord in the US and Britain/EU, if it will sway or weaken the influence of those countries internationally.


To what ends though?

The Chinese are awash with money and cutting-edge tech. Russia isn't. It's a dysfunctional and backward kip with a national fondness for corruption and dodgy leadership.

Like I said, I'm far from an expert on geopolitics, but if Putin can stoke division inside the US, especially if it ends up in someone like Trump in power, it could help diminish the influence of the US, especially in Russia's own neighbourhood. It probably also doesn't hurt Putin himself if things in the US end up tipping over into violence as we've seen happen this summer. He can say that western-style democracy maybe isn't all that its cracked up to be, which again, also might not hurt Russia in those former Soviet states either.

five points

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2020, 02:01:12 PM »
Like I said, I'm far from an expert on geopolitics, but if Putin can stoke division inside the US, especially if it ends up in someone like Trump in power, it could help diminish the influence of the US, especially in Russia's own neighbourhood. It probably also doesn't hurt Putin himself if things in the US end up tipping over into violence as we've seen happen this summer. He can say that western-style democracy maybe isn't all that its cracked up to be, which again, also might not hurt Russia in those former Soviet states either.

I'm not an expert in geopolitics either which is why I'm trying to approach this from a logical angle. The above theory just seems a bit far-fetched to be credible, in my opinion. It isn't 1980 anymore and a change of US President or a bit of instability or trouble in America will have damn all effect in Russia.

Obama roasted Mitt Romney in 2012 for suggesting otherwise. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/20/flashback-obamas-debate-zinger-on-romneys-1980s-foreign-policy/

J70

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Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2020, 02:06:42 PM »
A more learned opinion:

From person who works for CNA, a non-profit consultant for US Navy and others
https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-does-russia-use-disinformation

NPR report
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/878169027/study-exposes-russia-disinformation-campaign-that-operated-in-the-shadows-for-6-t on a study released this summer

The content focused mostly on discrediting Ukraine and bolstering Russia. Some posts attempted to link Hillary Clinton to murder or tried to disparage German Chancellor Angela Merkel as an alcoholic. The campaign also worked to spread other baseless rumors, like that the U.S. was attempting to stoke a revolution in Azerbaijan. The accounts also created forged documents purporting to be written by congressional committees and fake Twitter messages, including a fabricated tweet that appears as if U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio is accusing British authorities of spying on President Trump